Eltham College, selective school with A* %39 GCSe results?

[larriss]

Hi all,

We will move to South East London next year Currently my kids are in state school in East London. But we will try to move them to the independent school when we move to SE. I am trying to find out which school we should apply in September and which area we need to move. We have twins in year 1 at the moment. So in September 2024 they will be year 3. . We moved to UK 5 years ago so I am not sure about “single sex schools”? All most all our friends here recommended us single sex school for our girls. I searched online as well, articles, reports also states that girls do better in girls only school especially in secondary stage.
My daughters are doing great in their schools right now, they are well above average in all subjects. When we practice for 7+ at home they also do amazing. I do believe they can even get a offer from all of the schools. But that doesn’t mean they need to be in top academic school but we will pay a lot of money more than 10 years so I would like to make sure that it is worth to go. Also, we need to move before December 2023 so I would like to decide which area we will be moving. In addition, as my twins are small I don’t prefer them to travel by school bus - I am planning to drive so I need to make sure I live close to one of these schools:

I liked JAGS - results, facilities looks great. With school bus girls needs to travel almost a hour (twice). I heard some girls had health issues because of the pressure of school. Is that true?

Allenys - results and facilities are so similar to JAGS but its coed. If it was for me, I think I would choose this school for me:)
Meanwhile I am not sure about the Dulwich area - never visited before. Is it nice place to live with kids?

Eltham College - they say its selective because its starts at year 3 (7+) nevertheless exam results are not good for selective school. A* %39 -
I can not imagine if their entry point was nursery (3+)- but still not sure if we need to consider it. Please let me know if you recommend it. Plus, we are not Christian. Do you its going to be a problem for our girls? Also the bad presses about this school, are they true story?
I visited Eltham/Mottingham area I didn’t like it a lot. Am I wrong?

Colfes - its coed, big school with large green space. But when I visited I didn’t like the Junior side of the school however senior side was better. The disadvantage of this school is students needs to take 11+ exam to move to senior side. Its looks like it is a academic school but results also not so good when we consider that.

Blackheath High - smaller than other schools I think. Its girls only school. Entry point is 3+ and A* GCSE results are 34%. They say its not selective as girls in juniors can move to senior side automatically. But results are so similar with Colfes and Eltham College? - which they say they are more selective in 7+ and 11+?
I liked the Blackheath/Greenwich area. Green space, Greenwich park and Blackheath-Lewisham DLR is so close to city. (Transport is important for us my husband is working the city).

Colfes - its coed, big school with large green space. But when I visited I didn’t like the Junior side of the school however senior side was better. The disadvantage of this school is students needs to take 11+ exam to move to senior side. Its looks like it is a academic school but results also not so good when we consider that.
Colfes school in Lee, also close to the Blackheath.

What I don’t understand is how come Eltham College is more selective school but results are so similar to Colfes or Blackheath? I really want to know if it is worth to move Eltham? Also when I checked the official website of Eltham College and Colfes. Colfes results was better in 2022 but in league tables Eltham College always above from Colfes. Do you know the reason?

I will be so pleased if you let me know WWYD.

Thank you so much.

https://eltham.fra1.digitaloceanspaces.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/20114912/GCSE-Results-2023-2.pdf

For Eltham, for example, why are only 14% getting a 9 at GCSE French? When you pay more than 20k per year and many of them learn it from Year 3?
Physics results on the other hand are much better. 42% got a 9.
Also only 22/29% 9s in English. Not particularly impressive to me, given the cost when free state school options are open to the brightest.

I assume this is cohort specific and there were all boys. But if the school added that much value the scores would be higher. They are at all boys St Olaves for those subjects, notably so. That is all I am saying.
https://stolaves.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/document/GCSE-Results-2023-and-2022.pdf?t=1705413804?ts=1705413804
102 out of 125 at St Olaves got a 9 in Physics. And a fair few boys take the Certificates in Further Maths. Not all schools offer that. If a parent has an able mathematician, that is an important consideration.

It depends on what subjects you are interested in for your child as well. More Art at Eltham for sure than St Olave’s, it seems. Or if you want a range of languages, then Bexley GS seems great, but I do not know how easy it is to choose on the ground.

Or if you really want your child to do Drama GCSE or Mandarin, then Eltham offers that.

I think it is important to go into the detail of what is on offer and what the results are. If you are going to pay up. If you have an able Scientist/Mathematician then clearly St Olave’s is a great fit, if you get a place.

Maths:
Colfes 82.7% got 9-7
BG 78.3% got 9-7
So similar, but at Colfes 21 pupils also took Further Maths, which doesn't seem to feature on the BG results.

Also interesting that at BG only 17 out of 191 pupils took Art, and 11 out of 191 D&T!

Bexley Grammar is obviously a good school don't get me wrong, but I don't think it's true that the grammars get better results than somewhere like Colfes or Eltham College.

If your daughters are bright, put them in a good prep. school and get them ready for the Newstead entrance test, and use the money you save on secondary school fees to pay for their extracurricular interests.

@Scotcheggsontoast - you would have to ask Bexley Grammar directly about the options for the additional Maths GCSEs available for top sets. As they do IB where Maths is compulsory one would assume they do offer it, but who knows. If they are offering so many different languages they might be investing there and state schools have less funding. I do not know the answer to that one.

We only looked at the percentage of 9s because our children are high achievers and it did not seem to me that the those privates added value in that regard. I would rather spend cash on a 1:1 French tutor to become properly fluent than pay up for 14% 9 at GCSE.

It can be difficult to decide at 10 what subjects they will be most interested in. Sometimes you know, sometimes you don’t. Commute is also a relevant consideration as well as long holidays. Some want the latter, others do not. If money is no consideration, then often private gives parents more comfort and a better “service”.

@Intergalacticcatharsis
French at Bexley grammar 2023
114 pupils took it and 17 got a grade 9, which is roughly 15%, so about the same as Eltham.

If we're looking at just 9s, I'd be more concerned that at Bexley grammar only 13% of grades for English language were 9. At Colfes it's 43%. Than french? But everyone has their own priorities.

And maths BG is 24% and Colfes is 40%.

In both subjects / schools nearly all pupils took the exam, so it's not like they are stopping lower performing pupils from entering.

I am a bit confused @Scotcheggsontoast - is your child top 180 to get into Bexley Grammar and you are local to Colfe’? We are St Olaves minded here so I cannot comment on that school. Bexley Grammar is mainly a local school with a small catchment of children who passed the Bexley grammar test. Some top 180 kids will go there but typically those kids would also be offered schools like St Olave’s or Wilsons. So they choose the latter.

@Intergalacticcatharsis
As I understand it St Olaves is a very selective school, so not really in same league as the other grammars, or Eltham and Colfes.

My child is 4 so who knows, but we are thinking ahead. Both his dad and I went to grammar (similar to Bexley Grammar) and weren't massively impressed, so would like to try private for DS. But wouldn't want to spend all that money if the academics weren't at least as good as (if not better than) the 'normal' grammars (ie. Not At Olaves). So comparing the resutls.

I'm intrigued as to why some people say the normal grammars get 'much better' results than somewhere like Eltham / Colfes, so far it doesn't seem to be the case from what I've looked at!

St Olaves might be the aim if he turns out to be extremely academic, but for now I'd say that's unlikely.

“My child is 4 so who knows, but we are thinking ahead.“

I really do not think you can plan that far ahead right now. If a Labour Government put 20% VAT on private schools, the grammars will be even more oversubscribed, which basically means the cohort will be even more academic and prepared. This will then translate to higher grades in the grammars at GCSE.

Yes, St Olave’s is competitive to get in. Usually the parents are very educationally motivated from a very early age. That seems to be the trick. You can see it in their diversity statistics. It is all about the right preparation, combined with underlying ability. However, I doubt the child has to be a genius. It is not like that. In addition, school cultures can change quite quickly depending on the current head teacher so who knows what the situation will be in 7 years time.

People say both Eltham and Colfe’s recently became more competitive to get in at 11 plus so those cohorts feeding through will achieve great results. That trend can reverse very quickly with a Labour Government combined with a low birth rate.

If you want selective schooling, the trick is usually to pick a motivated state primary where the majority of the parents feel the same way and keep their children ahead of the game. If you pick a through private school now, then it will be much easier to just stay on and it will likely be difficult to tutor/leave later if your child is in the minority.

'If you pick a through private school now, then it will be much easier to just stay on and it will likely be difficult to tutor/leave later if your child is in the minority.'

In the minority of what? Wondering why it would be harder to tutor for the Bexley 11+ with child at private through school than state school?

Looking at the results going back a few years it does seem that in the past the regular grammars have gotten slightly better GCSE results than Colfes / Eltham, but this year is different so will be interesting to see if that is a trend that continues.

Also Colfes / Eltham select children at 3/4 and 7 (and then another intake at 11) so the fact that the results are mostly on par with the grammars who only select at 11 is testimony to the quality of teaching at the privates I would have thought??

Also didn't realise Bexley grammar catchment was so small, think we'd be outside it at just over 2 miles away, and like you say if VAT comes in maybe grammars will be even be oversubscribed! So really doesn't feel like a safe bet for me to bank on a grammar place (especially not St Os) for DC.

Colfes and Eltham are also very over subscribed at 11 (something like 11 applicants for every 1 place at Eltham, and 5 applicants for 1 place at Colfes) and have their own 11+ exam, so I wouldn't really see it as a back up in case of failing 11+ / not getting into grammar.

All independent schools are 'oversubscribed' as all the kids taking the entrance exams take so many. It doesn't mean that there are 11 kids who would actually choose Eltham if they were offered a place there? The majority of the kids who get offers will get several.

I went to an all girls school, I cam out with a string of qualifications and no self respect or confidence.

Pick the school that best fits your children, where they will be happy and thrive. And that might mean them going to seperate schools.

'If you pick a through private school now, then it will be much easier to just stay on and it will likely be difficult to tutor/leave later if your child is in the minority.'

In the minority of what? Wondering why it would be harder to tutor for the Bexley 11+ with child at private through school than state school?”

If your child’s friends are mostly staying and the school does not help with 11 plus and sets lots of homework, 11 plus for grammar can be more stressful than in a state school where the majority are tutoring/doing extra work for 11 plus and the school is not purposefully setting History projects to stop you from studying too much for the 11 plus.

‘Maths:
Colfes 82.7% got 9-7
BG 78.3% got 9-7
So similar, but at Colfes 21 pupils also took Further Maths, which doesn't seem to feature on the BG results.

Also interesting that at BG only 17 out of 191 pupils took Art, and 11 out of 191 D&T!

Bexley Grammar is obviously a good school don't get me wrong, but I don't think it's true that the grammars get better results than somewhere like Colfes or Eltham College’

@Scotcheggsontoast

Maybe it looks similar grades but the massive difference is… one of them is free and other one is private school! Better facilities, resources and small sizes in independnet school plus you need to pay about £20k for Eltham College (maybe more with clubs, uniforms) each year for 10 years! - sorry but when you consider that - these results are not good for selective independent school!!!

That might be the case, but the original comment I was responding to was 'why choose private when the grammars get much better results'. Which doesn't seem to be true.

@Intergalacticcatharsis
'and the school does not help with 11 plus
None of the state schools I've spoken to help with 11+, as far as I know you'd need a prep school for this

and sets lots of homework, 11 plus for grammar can be more stressful than in a state school where the majority are tutoring/doing extra work for 11 plus
Is that really the case that majority would be studying for 11+? It certainly wasn't in the one I went to. And in the local outstanding primary school to me only 16% go onto a grammar school so I don't think the majority have been tutoring for or even taking the exam.

and the school is not purposefully setting History projects to stop you from studying too much for the 11 plus.'
i mean this is a factor I haven't considered. Would be sneaky but not unbelievable I guess.

That's true, but even taking that into account there seems a fair amount of competition? Would be interesting to know how many schools most applicants are applying for. Considering most people don't want to travel miles and miles for school.

On this, do you think it's quite stressful for kids to be taking lots of exams for multiple schools, plus probably the 11+, it sounds horrendous to me for a 10/11 year old, but maybe it's not too bad???

@Scotcheggsontoast personally I think 3 should be enough? Maybe one that's a bit of a stretch and 2 that should be fine. But I know of people whose kids have set 8 or 9. Bonkers - surely you can narrow it down a bit first?

Grammar tests are currently earlier in September of Year 6.

Private schools tend to test in December/January.

If you pass Kent or Bexley and you are in catchment you will know. With Newstead if you have a good score you also know a place is likely. With St Olave’s you have 2 stages and don’t know until 1 March.

The real killer are top private schools, like Westminster, that have multiple rounds. Once you introduce schools with multiple rounds, that is more stressful.

Grammars select based on score and the outcome is transparent. Private schools and their admissions processes are a law onto themselves. Who knows if you get rejected because your child told them they prefer a grammar or another private even though they got 100 per cent in their maths test.

We also have the option of a private prep, which will advise on which schools to apply for and help with 11+ / entrance exams, but I think it sounds quite stressful to go through that process, especially if applying for more than 1, and worry it would take up a lot of time in year 5/6 which could otherwise be spent on other things!?

Only the top 7% ( I think that's the latest figure) of all students in the UK are awarded a 9 (A*) at GCSE so if 30% of a school cohort are getting them then surely thats good.

If children have been together and moved up the school together it can be harder for a new comer to make friends, so that may be something to consider.

Yes and considering Grammar schools like Chis and Sid and Bexley Grammar are getting 17.6% grade 9s, then 30% for Eltham college seems pretty good, and 36% for Colfes seems pretty good?

And like you say 9 is the top top score so you really wouldn't be expecting most pupils to achieve it for the majority of their subjects.

Although it means that 30% of grades are grade 9, as opposed to 30% of pupils gaining a grade 9. It would be interesting to know what percentage of pupils are gaining all 9-7 etc, as some very smart pupils getting all good results can skew it a bit.

I do think you have to be realistic about private schools too, they're not going to be getting 100% 9s in every subject just because you're paying, especially considering a lot of the pupils are being selected at 3/4 or 7 years old...