Epsom College tragedy

[Bambala]

I was horrified to read the story about the headteacher and family dying this morning, this poor family and I can't stop thinking about how the children at school must feel learning about this tragedy. I am sure the staff there are being brilliant at supporting them. I remember hearing that my old headteacher had died after I left school and even then being really shocked and upset.

were the parents of borders at that school told when they sent their children there that a non employee of the school who had access to their children and lived alongside them kept a gun? I bet not. Was it mentioned on school’s risk assessment or safeguarding paperwork? Did the school safeguard officer even know he had one?

I would hazard a guess that if it isn't a requirement to disclose keeping guns on school property it's because the question has never arisen... but I bet a lot of boarding schools are having a jolly good check through all manner of aspects relating to spouses and on site accommodation as we write.

No I’m saying that those with ill intent would source guns illegally. Most gun owners don’t commit crimes!

It doesn’t seem like someone necessarily called the police because they heard shots, as it was the relative who found them

Well you would think to ask would you? I mean I’m sure he was DBS checked, that’s pretty much all you can do. It’s not fair to expect the school to think up every unlikely scenario and question him about it just in case. I don’t blame the school, I blame the fact people are allowed guns as ‘toys’ rather than strictly for ‘need’ (military, game keeping etc), as well as the perpetrator himself obviously. Nobody could’ve seen this coming to be fair.

He killed her to punish her for being so lovely and successful and popular and accomplished, so great was his rage at the many ways in which she outshone him that he felt compelled to destroy her and her beautiful little girl.
Because she was older than him and of course because she was a woman he expected her to always be his subordinate, focus her energy on glorifying him so that he could always feel like the king.

This is just speculation. No one knows why he killed her and their daughter.

@LexMitior yep you are probably right, there will have probably been some mental health issues there. But I wouldn’t underestimate being emasculated especially if he came from a traditional family where men have have to play certain roles.

@Seeline yes she did indeed. But he probably lost his job unexpectedly - she said as much. Whether he got a new one or not we don’t know all the facts yet. Maybe she knew the sensitivity.

What you are saying makes no sense. This is not a situation where a criminal was planning to use a gun to rob a bank. It because he had easy access to a weapon in that moment that he was able to kill his wife and child.

I was going by the story in the Telegraph:

Gunshots heard before Epsom College head Emma Pattison found dead.
A member of staff called emergency services in the early hours of Sunday morning after hearing the shots, according to a source.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/02/06/rifle-range-cordoned-death-epsom-college-head-emma-pattison/

So if he hadn't have had a gun and assuming this wasn't premeditated he'd have found another way to kill them. This didn't happen BECAUSE he had a gun. It happened with a gun bedside he had a gun.

But I think I’m cases of suicide - or murder suicide - the gun was very likely not sourced with the intention of killing people.

Guns facilitate this sort of thing in a way that knives, blunt instruments and other readily accessible objects cannot.

So yes, this happened at least in part because he had a gun.

Totally agree.

No other instrument allows someone to kill multiple people as quickly and easily as a gun

When murders like this happen I always wonder about when they first met. Her thinking ‘oh wow, this guy is amazing’, getting butterflies in her stomach on their first date, and excitedly telling all her friends about him.

I don’t agree that he was necessarily suffering from mental health issues. Perfectly sane people commit awful crimes all the time. It’s just a grotesque display of male arrogance. He ‘owns’ his family.

The husband's licence had just been updated. Another firearm handed out to someone probably with scant checks - as in Plymouth - but devastating consequences. Such a mess.

Define in cold blood tho. If there's been a build up, tensions, arguments, escalation it's likely to be in hot blood. Anger, jealousy are fiery emotions. Was the suicide because he did it and isn't any regretted it or because he would rather be dead than in jail.

Depression, emotional disconnect can be an icy emotion. Numbness, nothing matters not even life.

Nothings ever as some as just in cold blood.

@Ndd135632 - it's very complex, agreed. Women leading families can raise difficult questions about masculinity, emasculation and domestic abuse.

Do you think the same about all the gun deaths in the States? Their murder levels would be the same even if guns didn’t exist?

Yes Jeffrey MacDonald had no mental health issues. That's why his wife's family initially supported his story that there were intruders. He was sane, charming and highly intelligent, just utterly cold-blooded.

@MissHavishamsMouldyOldCake - depression or otherwise is not an excuse. Perfectly disgusting people who commit revolting crimes suffer from it. Many criminals do. I mean this just in the sense it is factor in disordered thinking. Depression can seriously affect empathy for others, for example.

Not sure about this case, but in the cases of Chris Watts and Jeffrey MacDonald - they killed their kids in absolutely cold blood. It was not a spur of the moment rage, but completely premeditated cold murder.

Women leading families can raise difficult questions ...
for inadequate men
...about masculinity, emasculation and domestic abuse.

Corrected that.

This is not caused by a woman's success, but by a man's inadequacy.

I don’t think just because one person’s job is more visible (or of more interest in the press), this means they are leading their family.

Just a general point really.