what's the take on recent debate about perents effectively lying to get their kids into faith school?

[peacelily]

Not lying to the headmasters with a forged baptism certificate per se, but baptising their children into a faith which neither parent has any conviction to or alleigiance in so as to get them into better c of e or even better catholic schools (popular viewpiont not neccessarily mine).

Is this acceptable, is it ok to lie about your spirituality for the sake of your children's education and what does this teach the kids?

In light of a recent debate on "any questions"

It is hyprocritical obviously but having said that I would (and did) consider it if there was a big difference between that and state alternatives. I don't think it necessarily teaches the kids anything because at aged 4 or 5 they don't know any different. dd enjoys going to church and sunday school when we go (however sporadically).

In a case like this, what do you say to your kids the day they ask you about your faith? They may not at 4 or 5 (though my dd would have done), but they almost certainly will later. Do you lie to them? Or do you tell them they'd have to lie to their teachers about you if asked? To me, either of these alternatives would be unthinkable.

I frankly do not understand doing this. I am Christian, and can't imagine wanting to send my daughter to a school of a wildly different faith. Even if it was a very good school, I just can't see doing it. Not living in the UK, I probably cannot properly understand this practice.

Are the state alternatives that poor, that someone who is for example, an athiest, would want their child taught Christianity?

I think its ok to do if you are a non practising (as in non attending church) christian. I was in this category, as I believe, just dont believe in the church particulary. So its a kind of "if needs must" to meet the criteria.

I think it is wrong if you are an athiest, as you are depriving another family who would normally have got in,assuming they were genuine. having said that, maybe going would convert them to be a believer, you never know.

the problem is, proving who are really genuine believers, its impossible i think.

of course most parents just want a good education, and i guess to go against their morals which doesnt really hurt anyone else except themself, they think is a price they are willing to live with.

if they arent religious really, they wont care about being judged!

Are faith schools really that much better? I am a practising catholic. Both my children were baptised when they were 6 weeks old. I am not sending them to a catholic school. Maybe it's the area I am going to live in, there are many really good village schools and I would rather they attended there than the local catholic one! Maybe it's also because the nearest catholic one is my old school

My attitude is .

If you design a system where you force parents to jump through hoops in order to get their children educated, then they will jump through the hoops. If the hoop were that parents had to dye their hair pink, run 5 km every weekend and turn 10 cartwheels in the playground every morning, then parents would do that (and we'd solve the obesity crisis - come to think of it, maybe that should be introduced). The hoop in this instance happens to be that you have to pretend to believe something you don't.

I think if you do it, you are teaching your children that if the state sets up barriers to what people need to function in their society, they will somehow get round those barriers. I don't think it's remotely hypocritical, that's the wrong word. Hypocrisy is when you pretend to believe something in order to gain the good opinion of the world. People don't pretend to believe in christianity for the sake of other people's good opinion, but for the sake of getting their children educated.

I'm lucky at the moment, the primary schools round here are OK and if the DC's pass the 11+, the grammar schools are fine and faith isn't an issue. But I wouldn't condemn any parent who jumps through hoops to get their child educated. It's a disgrace that they have to and I'd rather condemn the state for not providing decent schools, than parents for trying to ensure that their children are educated.

McDreamy - my mother (devout, not to say fanatical catholic) moved me out of my catholic secondary school into the local non-faith school because it was so bad!

Littlebella. Brilliant answer !!

I disagree it smacks of hypocrisy IMO and to blame the state is all to easy an answer on discussions like this.

I'm C of E I married in a C of E church, I go to church sporadically and am going to start going more so dd can go to Sunday school. I've put her name down for the local non faith school and also the local C of E school in case we don't get in to the local non faith one. Both of these schools are very good, as is the catholic one up the road.

However we're not catholic so I won't be jumping any hoops because I believe it's fundamentally wrong and making a mockery of others spiritual beliefs.

littlebella, i agree.

I think people have the right to mock other people's beliefs tbh.

And to do whatever reasonable to get their children educated. Without education, you can't function in our society. I don't see why any child should be excluded from the chance of a decent education, because of what their parents believe.

What I think smacks of hypocrisy, is for someone to claim the right to have their children educated properly, while smugly proclaiming that the children of others who don't happen to believe what they do, don't have the right to that same educational opportunity. And then to claim the high ground because their children happen to be lucky enough that their parents are already on the right side of the hoop.

More than a little pharasaical, imo.

So those families who live locally who are genuinely catholic or C of E should have to fight to get their children a place at the local religious school because grasping middle class parents who believe it's morally ok to lie about their spirituality

It's morally dodgy and totally unfair

Yes, why shouldn't they have to fight?

The rest of us do.

Conversely, you could argue that of course they shouldn't have to fight. And neither should the rest of us.

"It's morally dodgy and totally unfair"

And excluding children from a good education on the basis of what their parents believe, isn't?

LOL.

I went through this dilemma last year-it is so hard being torn between your morals and your childs education.
Everyone we knew was telling up to get the dc baptised- that's what they did, only a bit of water on the head etc etc and actually, some people telling us this were practising Catholics!

i feel sorry for the kids who go to faith schools. by day they will be getting their heads filled with myths presented as truth and by night their parents will be contradicting it. what a mind f**k.

If it was a fair fight then it's an equal playing field, amonst other families who have the same convictions as they do.

Of course every child has a right to a decent education, but to always trot out the argument that anything is defensible if it means the children are well catered for despite it's ethical and moral implications is a thin argument. I'm not saying I know what the alternative is, I don't but for us it doesn't involve lying about our beleifs or role modelling this to our child.

the alternative is to send your kids to the nearest non-faith school and trust that they will do well.

Little Bella - totally agree

I did seriously consider having Dd1 baptised when she was about 3.6, as I went to the open days of the 2 local primary schools and then spent the evening in tears.

I think I would have gone ahead with it too if we hadn't been so lucky as to get moved before she started school.

I am not saying it is the right thing to do, but I can understand why so many people do it.

" of my sisters just got palces for their LO's at the same faiths chool, one is a christian and has had active involvement (well more her DH but she helps as well) with the church for years; the other openly despises religion, failed to attend her own son's baptism, and applied because it was a good school. There are of course lots of good schools in her district; she ahs been rather hoodwinked by the current press PR with faith schools.

Sister 1 particualrly narked as she didnt want the kids at the same school (other sister will be forever leaving messages saying ooh just pick up X will you I'm working, plus the boys are a nightmare if together).

I personally think non-Faith sister is very naive to make this decision. My boys were placed into a Faiths chool by dint of it being the local school- never a choice i'd have amde, despite having some faith myself I like to be able to input into the boys understanding and the school is aprticularly fundamentalist and a bit scary for my liking.

Also, if you're wanting your kids raised up to christian values if not faith, surely you should be setting an example by not lying? Example far more important than falsely claimed fath imo.

What I find puzzling is that many of these parents jump through the "lying to get in hoop" and then moan that their child is being taught religion .

so whilst middle class parents continue to lie and cheat to get their kids into a state school with good results, the school's they are so desperate to avoid continue to fail and sink along with the kids who got to them. if people sent their kids to these state schools and invested time and effort in improving them the whole state system would be better for everybody. so much for community and education for all.

it's not just teaching kids that it's OK to sell out your principles it's teaching them that their needs are more important than others less fortunate than them.

but then i suppose the education system simply mirrors the economic system. our school's are there to churn out workers.

sorry, 2 of the sisters- looks as if I ws quoting someone!

personally am anti faith in education 9even refused to tkae the faith school cert at Uni because theres simply no way I wouldteach in that system), but what I do find a struggle is the idea that all poelpe should have access in cases where the school maybe isn't funded by the Government- ours is funded by the local Church, why should they be funding the education of people who aren't really lying? (ours has a special funding status)

dinahmoe- actually I don't believe that it is only mc parents who do this. IME it is working class parents who have a strong work ethic and really want their children to do well.
They can't afford achool fees, often can't afford to move (esp. in London) yet want a decent education for thier children