what's the take on recent debate about perents effectively lying to get their kids into faith school?

[peacelily]

Not lying to the headmasters with a forged baptism certificate per se, but baptising their children into a faith which neither parent has any conviction to or alleigiance in so as to get them into better c of e or even better catholic schools (popular viewpiont not neccessarily mine).

Is this acceptable, is it ok to lie about your spirituality for the sake of your children's education and what does this teach the kids?

In light of a recent debate on "any questions"

peacelily I don't believe "anything is defensible" in getting your kids educated. I just think that ticking a box to say you're a member of a faith of which you are not, is.

Also what is this thing about selling out your principles? I don't have any principle about what my children are taught at school, the national curriculum and SATs ensure that lots of the stuff they have to do isn't ideal anyway and I don't think there's any harm in them learning pie in the sky, they can accept or reject it later as they wish.

I do agree that if you are going to go this path, you've got to be very careful about how you respond to the conflict between your own beliefs and what the school is teaching your children, it's not fair on them to confuse them. Also I agree that people who then whinge about their kids being taught about God, are ludicrously unreasonable. Unless of course, the faith school was the only one in a 10 mile radius - which does happen, especially in rural areas.

Also agree, it's not just "grasping middle class parents". (Although why it should be considered "grasping" to want your child to be educated is somewhat puzzling.)

LittleBella, our school once taught ds2 that evolution was wrong and they should beleive that god created the world and dinosaurs were a joke upon non-believers. When ia rgues it with ds2, he asked the teacher and was told Mummy was wrong.

Would you, seriosuly, not have an issue with that?

this thread is exactly why there shouldn't be state faith schools. I deeply resent the fact that I couldn't send my dds to the STATE school round the corner because I wasn't prepared to lie about my (lack of) faith. I double deeply resent the fact that said school has the audacity to claim in its prospectus that it "welcomes" people of all faiths and all colour. STATE schools (which faith schools are, let us not forget, funded by us heathens) should genuinely do this and not discriminate.

people who say that the liars are depriving the children of genuine believers of a place at a certain school are forgetting that the whole system deprives the children of (non-hyprocritical) non-believers of a place at a certian school.

I agree with littlebella's post of 9.02.

When (as in theyre not always) the school is state funded, then i totally agree with you hat.

there are some private church shcools but the vast majority are state-funded - to varying degrees

LOL peachy, yes in that case I would have.

But tbh, I think most christians in this country would have too.

i think the state system was established on broadly socialist and meritocratic principles aimed at offering a decent education to all. the state system we have today serves a few people well (those who will do whatever it takes to make sure their kids get a place in a good school) and lets down many others.

wanting the best for your kids is not grasping, but what about wanting the best for other kids too. what if your decisions and actions could improve the prospects of other children?

nutcracker - genuinely curious - what was so bad about the initial primary schools you went to the open day for? was it the other parents you felt uncomfortable with? or the school itself?

Actually I am a christian LB- but part of that (imo) is wanting, as the alst poster said, all kids to have an equal chance. I don't claim to have the answers to how to oversee that mind you, but think the system is unfair.

OK, most parents could make the choice to attend Church and apply for X school- but not all can.

Maybe they have to work Sundays? (eg nurses, medics- oh so many people in thsi day and age)? Maybe they dont attend Church ogten for the same reason as us- disbaled child/ren who cant cope with it? Maybe the aprents themselves have SN or language barriers or whatever? Its these people and their children who often lose out through no fault or lack of willingness to 'jump through hoops'

erm maybe they're Muslim? Jewish? Sikh?

Actually a lot of re schools would accept that in theory as attendance- know of several who would prefer regular attendance at a Mosque over a non-believer.

are your sure?? non of the church schools round here would. theyhave attendance at a particular church as their first criteria, then attendance at other churches. other religions don;t get a look-in.

Maybe that varies where you are- you're somewhere (saw another of your threads) where these thinsg are far more competitive I think? (no real bad schools here, only levels of good / poshness).

Mind you there won't be anyone of other faith from next year, likewise no sn kids, nobody not white uness their parent happens to be a Pastor- seriously pissed off about that- no way ds4 going there (although hes unborn as yet LOL), and glad ds3 transferring out in September anyway. eduaction is about mixng with as many different poeple as possible, not isolating yourself in an artificail of community of self-clones. well t is for me anyway.

yep - agree with you there. it is v. competitive near us - the church schools are so oversubscribed that they have to turn away church go-ers sometimes.

I used to go to our Church qute often and afaics there was only one other aprent who attended, plau one Vicar had kids there.

No idea where the majority of other 'faithful' materialise from!

We wanted a small school with flat access for DS - and the first such school to offere us a place was a faith school. I would happily have sent DS there, I was grateful that they had responded to our application under SEN, trusted in the education and ethos of the school, and that although I would have been apprehensive about not being able to support what the school was saying in some areas, DS would not be 'indoctrinated'. I would have been less happy had I had to pretend to my own child that I believed something i didn't - or admit that we had succumbed to the cynicism of hoop-jumping as explained by Littlebella. I agree with littlebella about the hoop-jumping, don't cindemn parents who do it - but would feel uncomfortable with the consequences.

Oh Nutcracker- Hope one of those schools wasnt one that I send my boys to???

I think it is shameful that many state schools are so bad that parents feel they have to do this.

You can't blame a parent for doing everything they can to do what they feel is best for their child. What is 'best' is so individual and based on so many things, but who is going to decide to not do what they think will benefit their child the most?

Some people think that their local comp is not good and think that their child needs a better school. Some people think the comp is the best place.

They're all doing the best for their children as they see it.

we need to understand what the problem actually is. Instead of focusing on the parents, we need to look at improving standards in school so that there is not this divide.

dinahmoe "what if your decisions and actions could improve the prospects of other children?"

Good question. But they can't. People make the rational decision that though it is wrong that their child should have an advantage over other children, disadvantaging their child isn't going to change the system, so they just do their best within the system. We no longer live in a society where solutions are supposed to be communal, we are expected to find individual solutions. So we do, unfortunately.

Of course your actions can improve the lots of other kids! when ds3 goes to sn school (waiting for a place / statement review), then I shall be taking my PTA Secretaryship skills with me- used to be a charity fundraisewr so have a few skills to share. Doesn't take many aprents making that sort of move to change things.

i think its disgusting that people need, or at least feel they need, to do this.

i think its wrong full stop to have faith schools at all. faith should be kept to personal or home lives. if its all so true and right, children will get plenty out of that, without needing to be indoctrinated all day every day as well.

we should have good, well funded, inspiring, diverse, fabulous schools, free of charge for all children.

but that just isnt so right now and if i were faced with a choice between a failing school and a faith school i had to lie to get my kids into... well, personally i think id move. and/or spend a lot of time tutoring. and/or HE. but i do not blame people for doing the faith school thing, not a bit.

i just happen to think religion is the root of all evil, so it wouldnt be for me.

But are so many state schools really so bad that people can't countenance sending thier children there?

On the other hand i know one local-ish state school which is 'the one' to get your child ito, people move into local streets to get a place, it is full of 'people like us'....but the ofsted and teaching isn't particularly good at all. But there isn't a major problem with behaviour, it doesn't have an inner-city council estate catchment and mc parents flock to it.

I know of other schools with truly excellent teaching, truly excellent Value Added scores....and people will jump, squirm or bribe their way through hoops to avoid it!

I fully understand that some faith schools offer un-wealthy families the chance to get into a 'good school' through their faith in a way they can't through using house-buying power...but it isn't always the actual education on offer that causes people to lie. It can be to be amongst families that they feel are 'like us' to some degree.