what's the take on recent debate about perents effectively lying to get their kids into faith school?

[peacelily]

Not lying to the headmasters with a forged baptism certificate per se, but baptising their children into a faith which neither parent has any conviction to or alleigiance in so as to get them into better c of e or even better catholic schools (popular viewpiont not neccessarily mine).

Is this acceptable, is it ok to lie about your spirituality for the sake of your children's education and what does this teach the kids?

In light of a recent debate on "any questions"

It's a relevant point, oblomov. But again, I think that blurs two very separate issues - the question of what people can/should do to get the best out of an imperfect system, and the question of whether the entire system is "right" to begin with.

Gosh, can you really not, MF? I can, I think there's a number of reasons. One is that because education in this country, even though it's extraordinarily important to life chances, is such a lottery, that people are very insecure and unhappy about it. If most schools were excellent, it wouldn't matter that private schools exclude children from poor families, or that religious schools exclude children from non-religious families, it would just be a mild harmless eccentricity of theirs. But lots of schools that normal people have access to, are crap, so they feel pissed off that for some arbitrary reason, some people's children have access to better schools than theirs.

And the people who have that access, feel defensive about it and scared that they'll have to get down in the shit with the rest of us if their privilege becomes so resented that it's abolished. And so they get very angry and scared about that prospect and they get on their high horses and try to defend the fact that their children have a privilege on the basis of them being entitled to it and the others are not, and they say that people who aren't entitled but are doing it anyway, are somehow immoral, like benefit cheats. And then that pisses off the people who think that they might do that if they were in desperate straits and who can't see why their children shouldn't have the same chances of a decent education as those of the neighbours who happen to go to church and then everyone has a punch up because they're all terrified of the shit education that's being offered to most of us...

There, that's my attempt to explain it.

It's not the same, though, is it?@Unquiet. Religion has always pleaded 'special case' status and whether we like it or not, faith schools aren't going away.

(Are we debating whether faith schools should exist at all? If so, I shall reserve my opinion on that one, for the above reason)

lol littlebella that is an excellent summary - and i speak as a non-lying, non-high horsing faith school parent!

Just because religion has pleaded special case status it does not automatically deserve it.

And why are faith schools better than so many non-faith schools? that's an interesting point of debate.

my wooden spoon in that particular cauldron is to really despise people who use (say) private/grammar/faith/bought-into-good-catchment schools (delete as applicable) and then defend their choice by saying something like, "well it's less unfair than a private/grammar/faith/bought-into-good-catchment (delete as applicable) school - so ner!"

just admit that's your particular "hoop" in an unfair system.

Oblomov we live here becauze University is here. That's it, no otehr reason. The course I am doing wasn't on offer in the same format elsewhere.
But a lot of people were born here and are not Christian- should they just ship out then? Honestly?
What about all the poeple housed by the council on the estate?
(Oh and LOL at the buying- here- rented dear, I am a Poor Student)

Yes, I'm having a lot of problems with these very strong moral judgements and the idea that lying to get your child into a school is SO terrible. I would like someone to at least admit that a place in these religious schools in certain areas where there are no decent alternatives IS a prize worth having. It's kind of what I've been trying to get people to admit (UD). Either admit that the rest of the schools are crap, and that's why it's terrible if a 'real' Christian child has to go there, OR say that the alternatives are ok, and that you understand the dilemma.
I also don't think pretending to be of another faith 'makes a mockery of that faith' - I think that the priest does that when he or she buys into the whole letter signing thing. I personally would have much more respect for them if they refused to do it.

I don't know...Call me a hypocrite, but I look at my local RC school, which is fantastic in almost every respect, and I just can't work up the passionate idealism of my youth. My first thought, honestly is: 'I know which school I'm sending my son to!'. I do find it strange and rather ironic that in my area, Catholic, Islamic and Jewish schools are (without exception) excellent, whereas C of E schools are all shite. We can't get our non-denominational state schools right...and we can't even get our own faith schools right. Makes me laugh a bitter, world-weary chuckle.

I think in many areas people have been driven to becoming obsessed with getting into the perceived 'good school' by the league tables and sheer paranoia.
We have a secondary school 5 minutes walk away. The catchment is in theory a good demographic mix. However, I would not want my child to go there as it has had the worst reputation in the area for behaviour and the worst results.The main reason for this is that the intake does not reflect the catchment. Why? Because 'aspirational' parents are playing the system by going to church to get them in to the CoE school in the town (4 miles away). If they can't get in there , they try the RC school 2 miles away. Result is disproportionate amount of uninteresed kids with unsupportive parents. Became a vicious circle too because once this school got the poor rep then it was undersubscribed which meant that whenever the LEA needed to find a school for kids excluded from other schools they ended up at this one.
I know there might be exceptions but the if the faith schools are getting the better results it is because they get the 'better' intake. I have heard there are some undersubscribed faith schools; I'll bet these are in areas where the 'aspirational' (middle-class, if you like) have anothher escape route from the hoi polloi - ie a selective system or guaranteed catchments.

I agree with Redadmiral, what is so bad about trying to get your child in ?
They are 'lying' because they attend church 52 times a year, but they are only there in order to get their child in.
I think our form specifies that a minimum of 30 times in a year, or Father won't sign. He signed ours!! And we only attended .... about 4.
They may be 'lying', but that many masses is nothing to be sneezed at.

"I can't understand why people get so het up over this issue."

Well apart from religious reasons I think it's because you can't always just BUY your way into them by getting an expensive house in a certain area, or paying for a tutor to coach your child.

I disagree that any schools have better results because of 'better' pupils. I think strong leadership, discipline, rewards and inclusion practiced by a strong and committed headteacher can work wonders anywhere.

LOL Oblomov are you a re-incarnation of Henri IV of France? (Paris is worth a mass, how many masses is a place at the local school worth?)

Oh, I don't disagree it;s "a prize worth having." But as I have said all along, there are two debates - one about the hoops people jump through and the other about the system which forces them to do so. They are quite separate issues, and separate debates.

Agree with idlingabout. I think league tables are far closer to the heart of this problem than faith schools.

In the 70's all the primaries where I grew up were "faith" schools. I was a Catholic but happened to go to a C of E primary. DP on the other hand was Anglican but happened to go to a Catholic one. It was no big deal.

It's the obsession with getting into the "best" schools - whether that be by moving house (for those who can afford it) or getting religion (for those who can't) - that is causing the gap between the oversubscribed best and the abandoned worst to widen disastrously. The result is that we all feel we have no choice but to play the game and so it goes on in a huge vicious cycle.

Personally I think the strategic house moving is far more damaging than the religious sleights of hand as it is a very efficient way to increase social segregation, but can completely understand both.

I remember Ben Elton in about 1985 (when he was still left-wing, and still funny, rather than being a luvvie toady with his tongue up Andrew Lloyd-Webber's arse) saying this:

"Course, we've all got choice now, ain't we? So let's all farkin' choose Eton fer our kids."

yetanothername - if that is the issue, then let's be clear about it.

Something is very wrong when parents are moved to near hysteria about which school to send their child to. There is little point in scapegoating faith schools, or people who play the system to get their child into one, when the real issue is something much bigger. League tables and Ofsted reports have injected huge amounts of paranoia and fear into what should be a perfectly straightforward process - sending your child to school. Parents will always do what is best for their child. It's the government's job to see that every child has a chance of a decent education, and at the moment, I don;t think they're making the best job of it.