Slave to the fees

[Uhu]

On Monday, I bumped into a male colleague who wanted to know how the babies were doing. I asked him how his seven year old son was getting on and then he off-loaded on me the perils of private school fees and how much it was costing him and his wife. He said if I could get them into a good state school to do so because finding the fees every year was such a hassle.

In the first place, I had not contemplated sending my twin DSs to private school so I think his point was nugatory. Nevertheless, I did wonder why he bothered and he said it was because he did not think much of the state schools in his area. Fair enough but I'm sure that there are some good state primary schools if he bothered to look. Ultimately, I did not feel sorry for him.

Yesterday, I saw another male colleague and he started telling me about problems he was having with a bullying boss and that he would like to leave the organisation. However, he is well paid, over 50 years old and does not feel he would find a job that would pay him what he earns now. He has a daughter (age 13) at private school and he said that was the main reason that stopped him from leaving. He needs to the pay the fees and at the moment feels trapped. I actually felt sorry for him because he is a humble guy and reading between the lines, he and his wife had to wait a long time before their daughter was conceived so obviously, they want to give her the best of everything. He also said that his wife wished that she had spent more time with their daughter when she was younger instead of working full time. Despite the private education, it is not a happy household and I sense there is resentment on the daughter's part. I felt sorry for him because he is a decent and humble guy.

It made me think that most parents do want the best for their children but there are some things that money cannot buy. Like spending time with them when they need it. Is it worth sending your children to private school if you have to struggle to find the fees? Children are not stupid and I'm sure they pick up on the anxiety so how does that make them feel? I firmly believe that if a child has ability and supportive parents, it will succeed at any type of school. Is being a slave to the fees ultimately worth it and what is the emotional cost to the family?

Carrie G - makes a good point about emphasis on sets/ groups our children associate with at both state and private schools. Somewhere amongst the fuddle of my posts I echo this sentiment. Despite £5k per child per term all sorts still went on, just as it did in the state school I went to many moons ago. Sex and drugs, bullying whatever its is still sex drugs bullying and so forth no matter how much or how little/ non existent your fees for schooling are - you always have to be a parent first and foremost no matter how much you spend or sacrifice financialy

I would echo what Carrie says about the sets thing. The proeblems that occur are almost always in the 'bottom' sets. Another thing to be aware of is if there is a persiatant trouble maker in your childres form if they are taught in unsetted classes for some subjects. For example my school teaces all the 'humarities' and 'arts' subjects in form groups. So a persistant trouble maker in the form could be a nightmare.

I have no problem with people posting opposite oppinions to me, I enjoy a good discussion. The difference here is that uhu posted from a state of relative ignorance. It would be like my leaping into the SN forum and telling the people there, 'No, you are wrong, it is like this'.

While any poster should be free to be the expert about their personal experiences, none of us can expect to be agreed with if we spout a load of nonsense becuaes we don't understand our subject. Added to that she did start the teacher bashing with her comments. And to be honsest my job is hard enough without taking that sort of shit on Mumsnet as well. If she is free to make offensive comments about teachers I am equally free to argue the toss with her.

Enid, could you see if the private school would loan out the facility? I ask because dd's school is presently paying for a new school state school in London. Many private schools take their charitable status seriosly.

Paolosgirl

'Censorship'?????

You're kidding right?

Which thread were you harangued on out of interest (sorry, shamelessly being nosey)?

ScummyMummy - have you got a reference for your stats. Genuinely interested, being in one of those SM schools and in an area where there are at least 3 other local schools on their way - these are just secondary.

Wonder if that %age is as low if you factor out the primaries? Wonder what %age of non selective secondaries are in SW or SM?

Really am interested so if you do have a ref. to hand it'd be great for my meeting next week. Cheers.

BTW, I am sure that there is no personal attacks here on Uhu at all. I am sure I haven't made any. Yes, I have disagreed - as I feel in a valid position to do so, but I have not insulted anyway.

Hi hula. The stats for secondaries specifically are a bit hard to find in digestable form, though I'm sure they must be out there somewhere. However, the Ofsted website reports that 97 secondary schools were in special measures as of 9/4/2004. According to a National Literacy Trust article (that I found by googling) there were 3457 state secondaries nationally in 2002. So on a crude 97 / 3457 x 100 calculation I make it that around 2.8% of secondaries are on special measures. There were 56 secondaries identified as having serious weaknesses, which a similar calculation puts at 1.6% of all secondaries. HTH for your meeting.

Hi Hmb. I think I can see where you are coming from on expertise a bit. But I also think we need to value different types of expertise. For example, you personally have expertise as a teacher of x number of pupils in x number of schools, but your experiences as a pupil yourself and as a parent of pupils also shapes your thinking on education, I'm sure. These are other forms of expertise which may be quite as valid (if not more so) in certain circumstances, IMO. For example, I have worked as a professional within the special needs field for a number of years- within schools, play settings, voluntary and statutory sectors- but I emphatically do not believe that this gives me more expertise than a child with special needs or the parent of a child with special needs. Doesn't mean I can't be helpful sometimes, that I don't have valid input into debates around services and what does and doesn't seem to work but I don't and shouldn't have a monopoly on that, by any stretch of the imagination. With respect, and I seriously have a great deal of that, both for you personally and for teachers in general, I don't think that teachers should have a monopoly on school debates either. We are all experts on our own experiences of school, whatever these may be, and there is no reason why these should not feed into the debate and make it all the richer, IMO.

Thanks for that.

So I make that about 4.2% of state secondaries in SW or SM (i.e. reported as failing). I guess what we don't know is how many are nearly there (like the 3 in my LEA) and those who just scrape through - possible same again I'd imagine.

Hmm...

scummy - there will be someone near you that organises things like that that for your sons' school! Whereabouts are you, I can't remember.

hmb, good point, yes, on paper they do hire out some of their facilities as they have their charitable status to worry about but sometimes its like getting blood out of a stone...I have spent six months trying to book a time to hire their performance space, it is very hard work!

At the beginning of the summer had a film project for kids from the local comp and at the end of it they got to meet Ken Loach and show their films at the theatre. It got good local coverage on the news. Parents of the private school kids wrote to COMPLAIN that 'their' theatre, that they paid for, was being used for children that did not attend the school (read, comprehensive kids). So I guess the school has tread a fine line between pleasing their clients and fulfilling their charitable status. It was a pretty depressing end to what was a fab project.

Me too re the best for our babies, batters, me too. But I do think that if well over 90% of secondaries are at least satisfactory on Ofted criteria there may be some hope. I was surprised at the very low figures myself, I have to say. I hope I've got them right! (Btw- thank you for your absolutely WONDERFUL email. It made my day and I'm sorry I haven't replied yet. I will soon. You are a star.)

Enid- we're in Central London. Maybe the Tate does this sort of stuff- it's about 2 mins from their school if that- but your activities sound ace and I'm not sure the Tate can compete.

I am feeling very proud of myself for not getting involved with this thread.

you just have!

the Tate has a good outreach programme but not so good at forming links with local schools (I have been working with someone at Tate St Ives for the last couple of weeks).

I think London children often get overlooked in these kinds of arts projects (from a funding perspective) as the perception for funders is that they are not culturally isolated.

Sorry off topic and probably dull

Not dull at all, enid. I probably need to do more cultural stuff with them myself actually. There is lots on offer but I can be a bad parent in this respect.

Just to add a different point to the debate...

Many people may not be aware that per exam essay that 'A' level students write (in my subject), there can be as little as 4 marks that could potentially distinguish between a 'B' grade and a 'D'.

Now I teach a class of 20 'A' level students - my friend in private has 8 in her class. I give up my lunch hour every week to hold private tutorials with my students (I only work 2 days a week). This means that if I see a student for ten minutes and work through one lunch break every week (which I do) then I only ever get to see an individual student every ten weeks - that is once a term, approx five times over their two year course. Even this has not been allocated from the school, but I give because I feel it is needed!
However, this is insufficient to give them good individual advice to improve their exam technique by those magical four marks!

In contrast, my friend who teaches at a local private school has 'A' level class sizes of about 8... and she is given an hour a week to do private tutorials.. that means they are given individual tutorials every other week at the minimum! Needless to say, those private school students are given many more opportunities than mine!

I am also an 'A' level examiner, and I have to say that I know that the main reason for getting lower grades at 'A' level is poor exam technique. Yet, this cannot really be very successfully done on a whole class basis - it is best done working with a student individually. State school teachers, no matter how good are simply not given the same amount of time to invest in each individual student as in some private schools.
Without the individual time to spend with students (not including time to prepare, conduct research into your subject, mark essays etc) it is going to be that much harder to get your students to get that 'B' grade as opposed to the 'D'. And as we all know the impact of getting a university degree can vary depending on whether you have a 'B' or a 'D'!

It is not as simple as just saying, a good student will learn anywhere... I think things are much more complex than that!

Scummymummy, I fully agree that there are other forms of expertise in the area of education. However I seriously doubt the expertise of any on who goes in and basically says that the teacher poster are whinging. Sorry and all that. Put it down to too many nasty discussions on MN about education if you like. That and a headache that has now lasted a week

rarrie your post is very depressing.

scummymummy, I'm not a teacher but a parent of teenage children who have been through both the private and state sector & come out the other side. It is very galling to hear from a mother of babies, who has not had any personal experience of school since the 70s or whatever, making sweeping statements, and criticising people who have. That's what upset people.

Her opening post was a dig at her colleagues for being stupid enough to pay for education. If I were them I'd be thinking "what business is it of yours?" She then chose to take offence because people didn't agree with her. I certainly don't, being one of those stupid people who nearly bankrupted myself to put 2 children through private school.

In my little area of Kent there is no such thing as a catchment area anyway (& we aren't in one at all for secondary!!)

I do see where you're coming from hmb and tallulah. I think a bit of me feels upset that you find it so upsetting is all and that makes me want to downplay the intention behind what upset you. It is so easy to be bullish or tactless without really thinking through how other people might feel about what you've written. And also easy to be sensitive and insecure about what you read, feeling that other posters are gunning just for you. I have done both many many times over the years on this site, especially in the distant days of my newbiedom. I guess I wondered if uhu had fallen into a similar trap. Anyway, enough enough enough from me on this. I hope your headache gets better soon, hmb.

I seems to be a bit better this morning, fingers crossed.

rarrie, am depressed now, like enid, after reading your message. You seem to be speaking from a position of good knowledge about these things.

Can I just ask, how do state grammar schools fit into this? As far as I know, class sizes are not tiny for A level classes, yet in my area, results are very, very good. Here's a piece taken from mumsnet news round up...

'Top state schools now rival and may exceed the quality of independent competitors, according to a Sunday Times analysis of the exam results of the top 500 schools. The league table includes 161 state schools, with 19 among the top 100. The highest places in the secondary sector are taken by an elite of independent schools, but in the second tier state grammars and some comprehensives compete strongly.'

Talking about grammar schools, are good results due to the fact that the pupils, having gone through the selective tests, are deemed to be bright anyway? or is it because the grammar schools somehow give them more individual coaching? Or is it because more grammar school parents pay for extra private tuition outside school hours?

I've got another reason to feel depressed too. I had to see my oldest son's head teacher, deputy head and form teacher for a meeting last week. Long story, basically ds is mixing with 'the wrong crowd' in his class this last few weeks, and being his easiliy led, spongelike self, his bahviour has gone downhill.

It's all fixable, lots of social engineering going on in the classroom to get him back with his 'good' friends. Not too worried about all this. But this mumsnet discussion was echoing round my head a lot during the meeting. The teachers were saying, yet again, how crucial is is for ds that he gets to a 'good' grammar school, as he is so exceptinally receptive to good or bad influences. They said I must be so worried about it all and were very sympathetic. The implication was, for my ds at least, the state comps just won't cut it at all.