When to plan for Oxbridge and what to consider?

[brainfog2022]

Hear me out, I'm not a Tiger Mum asking what can my reception-aged child do to get in. No, DC is in Y8, excelled at the 11+ and has always excelled at school and teachers always comment on how exceptionally bright he is. Although I suspect lots of people will say that" you don't need to do anything, school will pick up whether DC is Oxbridge material" and then take it from there. But I also know, from an acquaintance, that people DO plan ahead (but may not be open about it), whether it is to encourage their DC to enter writing/science competitions or do extra work.

A bit of context. DC2 is very, very bright (sorry that sounds totally braggy, but is a statement of fact - I have other, older children so I have some comparison0. He's the kind of kid other kids and parents refer to as 'he's just so clever, how does he even know that stuff'? I'm sure they think that he is forced to do masses of revision when, in fact, he hardly does any at all. DC is a very stubborn child who likes to do his own thing (would never ask us to read through anything or test him). He doesn't just have a remarkable memory but makes real connections and has an extreme thirst for knowledge. He likes to read science books for fun (wish he would read fiction but just can't make him...maybe I should try the audio route...). But he's also very sociable and does a fair bit of sports and gaming. Definitely not hours of 'extra' work on top of homework (which he manages himself - I have seen some other kids' work and it has so obviously been with a heavy input from their parents).

I realise that he will be competing with lots of bright kids who work ALL HOURS to get top results. Sometimes, and they are lovely, when I meet some of these children they don't all have the spark I would imagine is necessary at Oxbridge, but no doubt their parents will ensure they work hard for hours on end to get there.

The main reason I think DC would adore Oxbridge is the tutorial system. I know DC would LOVE being in a room with exceptional academics, debating some obscure issue. I'm not sure he gets enough opportunity of this at school (which is understandable, the teachers can't accommodate this), although he is known for asking very pertinent but out-of-the-box questions. Of course, the choice of uni will ultimately come down to him.

Also wanted to add that DC2 is completely different from DC1 and DC3. DC1/DC3 both work an average amount, have results above average, one slightly less at times, but they certainly do not have DC2's memory nor ability to make connections/links across numerous subjects/topics. DC2 knows more about most things than many adults. But he's also stubborn so not sure what would be helpful.

So, to cut a long story short, being in Y8 now, what are the key things for DC2 to consider over the next few years?

@fUNNYfACE36, That's such a shame. Has he graduated? Do you think it was related to his college?

Well... DDs course simply covered more than others she might have done, and I very much doubt all engineering degrees go into some of the 'hard maths' that hers did.

... it's partly the supervision/tutorial system but also a cohort effect. If everyone on the course has achieved A stars in physics and FM they can hit the ground running faster from a higher starting point than if some haven't managed to achieve those grades or not done FM.

I think it's the volume of stuff covered. DD is doing a humanity subject but she writes 9 essays a term - her friends doing the same subject at other good universities do a maximum of 2. She reads for a minimum of 30 hours for each essay. The content is much more in depth and detailed because there's so much more of it. (This term DD couldn't do the first essay/tutorial because of the day of the week it fell. So she's had to do her 9th essay in the holidays because she's not allowed to miss one. I phoned her on May Bank holiday to see how she was and she had just finished her supervision and had no idea there was a bank holiday. I felt much more sorry for her supervisor than her to be fair).
I think for subjects like medicine, there isn't a big difference - medics work all hours wherever they go (and vet med etc). But for some subjects it's a huge difference.

Best thing is to give him the resilience to be perhaps not the best amongst an excellent group of students but still being up to the right standard so meeting other bright children his age out of school in areas he is interested in, especially if he is used to being top in his subject. Broadening interests and learning how to join up the dots on his own without complete rote learning or cramming, being confident to think a bit beyond and above the set task and to question a bit harder than just what is expected.
The decision to apply came from my DD and was a gradual realisation that she was very good at the subject and wanted to live it intensely, which she still does elsewhere and very happily with no regrets at where she got to in the process.
On her journey, she met other kids who were convinced Oxbridge was their destiny and were hugely knocked back when they were rejected at various points in the process. DD was disappointed but not dejected in the end. So in short maturity in the subject and maturity as a person to deal with a high-stakes process.

for the record, I love the concept of Oxbridge, just wondered what makes the institution, what it is.

At yr 8 the focus should be on nurturing the passion for the subject and getting into a habit of reading around and beyond the curriculum. All-round GCSE results are important - more so now that the modular AS/A2 system has gone, so they are often the only exam grades in the bag at application — so don’t channel him into one or two preferred subjects and let the rest hang; keep up a broad academic profile.

For science at Oxbridge the maths is really key to support all science subjects. If you can help get a good solid foundation in maths and be heading towards an excellent grade in Maths GCSE (even eventually further maths at A-level) that really helps, even if his passion lies in physics or chemistry. I have colleagues who often say they wish applicants for physics did only maths maths maths! 😂 Not sure I’d go that far - but maths is an essential support to the Cambridge Natsci Tripos (where a maths paper is compulsory in at the least the first year) and really helpful for any science at Oxford too.

Oxbridge doesn’t require any extracurriculars at all and no admissions decisions will take anything like that into account. Decisions are made purely on academic ability and potential. So your DS may want to take sports, music etc. for fun and interest, but things like music grades or work experience or sports or head boy posts will not matter at all, and will confer zero advantage. They just get disregarded.

If however he can do a few subject-based or academic extras that will add to the things he can put on the personal statement and help keep his own interests whetted - physics challenge, extension work, masterclass or open day sessions etc. - but these are definitely not compulsory and as pp say, don’t pay for expensive courses - they aren’t worth it.

In the end, the key thing is ability in the subject - either ability beyond the A-level curriculum or potential to go beyond it. The interviews are very focused on discussing problems that the applicants may not have thought of before, but solving them through discussion using known scientific principles. Questions like: if you run your finger around the top of a wine glass so it makes a sound, would the pitch of the sound be higher or lower when the wine glass is full as opposed to half full? The candidate has to start thinking about the physics of vibration in glass and water and how the frequency of the vibration might change when you alter the proportion of the materials involved. A “correct” answer is not expected; but the interviewer will ask questions and assist with the thinking process, and they will want to see how the candidate reasons their way through the problem.

A really key skill is that at some point, the interviewer will introduce some new information and expect the candidate to be able to change their reasoning based on the new information. So nurture this key skill with extra reading, discussion with teachers, watching interesting documentaries, exposure to different forms of scientific thinking (eg Royal Institution Christmas lectures; science exhibitions and workshops; reading around the basics of sub-disciplines you don’t encounter at school, like materials science or astrophysics or virology). The key is developing an inquiring think outside the box kind of mind as well as getting the academic basics at school.

And there are lots of great science departments in the U.K. which aren’t Oxbridge - Imperial, Warwick, Edinburgh, many others! Oxbridge not the be all and end all!

Good luck - and encourage him to enjoy it; it’s meant to be fun! All the students I teach who have got in, all have in common enjoying the intellectual enquiry of their chosen field for its own sake.

I think many people think there stands all the other universities, and then oxbridge miles above them, when vrhe reality isn't that at all.There is huge overlap.oxbridge aren't even t he best unis for some subjects.
I smiled at the notion that a humanities degree at 'other universities' only requires 2 essays per term.That certainlyvisnt the norm.

My son went to Cambridge - Maths and then Masters in Astrophysics

1. He has always been naturally very interested in maths. He was identified as gifted and talented at Primary and Secondary school, not that it made any difference.
2. He had inspirational maths teachers on Primary school and at college. Secondary school was virtually hopeless. He has a lot of drive so pretty much motivated himself to get through his A’levels
3. At. College, the top tier of students were invited to Oxbridge info sessions. The room was packed. By the end of then2 years, just 4 of them got interviews and 3 received offers
4. I did nothing to prep him for Oxbridge apart from encourage and believe in him
5. The only tangible support he received was with preparation for his STEP exam.
6. Cambridge was harder than any of us could imagine. He felt he was failing all the time. The problem sheets were virtually impossible, the time with supervisors stressful and hard. And he was a student who got in without any coaching. I’d hate to think how a student would cope if they needed so much support to get in. It’s survival of the fittest.
7. Many students were taking drugs to keep themselves awake to revise for exams. Fortunately he got by with red bull, cola and takeaways. When he finished he said he felt on the verge of a nervous breakdown. Fortunately it didn’t manifest and his mental health is fine.
8. Please don’t become the tiger Mum you suggest you aren’t. If he is intelligent enough, it will shine the tough. Don’t put the pressure on him to focus on Oxbridge now. Focus him on doing well in exams and developing a thirst for knowledge in his favourite subject. Encourage him to learn widely and deeply.
9. Oxbridge is a phenomenal life changing opportunity. But students have it within themselves or they don’t.

1. oxbridge isn’t the be all.
2. learn to work hard. The vast majority of people there will work hard (even if they also party hard or pretend not to). If you are not prepared to work hard, then you might not enjoy it too much. I knew someone who formerly did admissions - extra curricular activities helped show a student could easily cope with the workload of a course.
3. learn strategies of coping with stress/mental health and having good communication with family and friends. This applies to uni students everywhere but oxbridge can be a bit of a pressure pot (some people might want to consider if it is the best place for them if they are sensitive to stress - academic success isn’t the only important thing in life).
4. agree with @theclangersarecoming that maths and often further maths are important for science, engineering, computer science, economics. Isaac physics/chemistry/computer science websites may be interesting after gcses. Maths challenge. Competitions/challenges.

Oxbridge terms for undergrads are very short - only 8 weeks so they have to go like the clappers. That's the main difference and they have to be able to cope with that.

If your son/daughter is prone to tonsillitis, maybe get them removed early and avoid missing at least a fortnight out of every 8-week term just being really ill?

Or is that a bit too specific? Sighhhhh

And then spend most of the Xmas/Easter vacs on consolidation/revision. And maybe a good chunk of the summers doing proper internships - it was a course requirement for DD. The 'short terms' didn't mean half the year idling!

Interesting discussion. I'm also interested in what you think is the Oxbridge 'spark' op. My ds is a STEM student at Oxford, and to be honest I would be hard pushed to see anything that resembled a 'spark' that could be seen by anyone other than a Maths professor! Of course there may be lots of people who outwardly have the sort of confidence that could be interpreted as a 'spark'. But equally many quiet, unassuming types who are quietly brilliant.
The point about working hard is a really important one. Anyone who graduates from Oxbridge will have learnt to work hard in order to survive, the workload is intense.
I asked DS what he likes about Oxford best and in the end he said he likes being surrounded by really smart people. It's a bit of a lottery anyway, the majority of applicants will all have Oxbridge potential and those that don't get in will be being brilliant somewhere else.

@beeswain I think both mine found that success at undergrad was just as much about having good habits and study skills as much as anything. Time management, being able to take good notes, being able to construct a compelling argument by interrogating the question - the hard yards of just showing up every day - were absolutely key to their success, and arguably counted for more than raw ability. Being brilliant and chaotic worked for a few, but not many.

@fishingeagle yes, I agree and that was the point I was trying to make in response to one of the OP's posts that they had met Oxbridge grads who appeared mostly to be hard working and bright but not necessarily brilliant. The hard graft, diligence and good study habits that become part of the intense terms pay dividends. My DS definitely falls into the 'hard working/diligent' category and it won him a scholarship 🎓

From your d's, perspectives, how exactly are they smart, as in smart in their knowledge of the subjects they are studying or so they have a broad knowledge of different subjects that they can converse about ?

It wasn't on my radar until at least a few terms into 6th form. I got good grades at GCSE and A level at a normal state school because I enjoyed working hard. I wouldn't say I had any particularly obvious spark, just enjoyed working hard for its own reward. No pressure from parents at all, just given space, time and belief in me.

Depending on the subject, lots of other just as good, if not better, universities. It is an incredible experience being there. I can't say I loved every minute at the time but the memories I have are overwhelmingly positive and it felt such a privilege to be there.

Why not let your child decide when the time comes (GCSEs/sixth form) what they'd like to do and where they'd like to go?

University is after all a time to be independent.

@Hawkins001 DS means really smart/clever in their subject

I would keep an open mind about other unis too. St Andrews now tops the uni lists in Times and Guardian and with students. Prob for the wider range of courses and the social life. less pressure?

as others have said oxbridge offer a fairly short list of courses compared to many other unis so it’s worth thinking about.

I smiled at the notion that a humanities degree at 'other universities' only requires 2 essays per term.That certainly isn't the norm.

There's definitely a wide variation between subjects even at the same Uni. We went to Durham (my husband as a Cambridge reject, I chose not to apply to Oxbridge) and really liked the collegiate system.

Of my Durham friends, the engineer had 37 odd hours of contact time, it was like a 9-5 job for him. As a geographer, I had 13 hours and my English friend had 6. My friend who did law at Durham went to no lectures at all and somehow managed to wing a 2:2.

My point being that, at Durham at least, the essays, lectures and tutorials are completely different levels of commitment by subject. I'm trying to dissuade my son to do engineering because, unless he goes into engineering, it's a lot of hard work for the same degree if you're, say, going into financial services as we did (including my engineering friend).

I know you should pick a subject you enjoy which i definitely agree with, but some of the 'heavier' degrees make it harder to enjoy some of the non academic sides of uni.

From my limited experience of working in a secondary with a sixth form, the kids whose parents have been prepping them for years are not the ones who get in to oxbridge.

My friend's son has an offer to study medicine at Oxford. I know it's a specialist application process to the other degrees but it all came from him.

He prepped for the various medical exams and lined up work experience, which was a challenge in the pandemic. He also entered the various essay competitions and science Olympiads (or whatever they're called).

@Hawkins001 Re ‘how smart’ - performing at or v near the top of their class in their subject is I think what they would be looking for in the school’s reference as a starting point. But context is everything - eg from a top independent school a very great deal will be expected from all aspects of an application. If from a school where getting 5 good GCSE’s is not a given then exceeding expectations and being an academic outlier will impress. @tiredanddangerous this too!