Steiner/Waldorf Schools - requesting info from those in the know...

[Rantmum]

...anyone know anything about the Steiner/Waldorf school system, pros and cons (particularly with reference to early years/primary education, but any info is good!. Had not really given them too much consideration but have recently moved and met several mothers who speak highly of the their approach.

Thats sort of what I mean too though.

The Anthro side to things should never be allowed to mean that bullying (for example) is ignored, or that SEN should be waffled away as karma or reincarnation or whatever.

Properly trained staff, in a school which clearly states the responsibilities of each individual teacher, and where one person (ie a headteacher) was directly answerable to what went on in that school - that would go a long way towards addressing that sort of thing.

In the school we are at, bullying is dealt with properly - pupils have been suspended for bullying. SEN pupils are allowed to use laptops in class.

[Speaking of human evolution] "The human being was at that time only jelly-like in
external form."

Feeling a bit jelly like myself.

Stripey- you said

"The Anthro side to things should never be allowed to mean that bullying (for example) is ignored, or that SEN should be waffled away as karma or reincarnation or whatever."

But this is precisely what happens ime.

Your school must definitely be more innovative. But it's presumably still called a Steiner school? And still talks about anthroposophy? - Yes- you've said before how open they are about anthroposophy.

It really is so confused- they're open about anthroposophy- but only use bits here and there- so how would you know which occult spiritual parts anty particular teacher believes at any one time?

The college of teachers always semmed a doorway to hierarchy and power struggles in a covert way to me.
There was a natural deference in the school ours were- to the elder, anthro, experienced staff.It's inevitable and unavoidable- whatever the outward three fold social obligations ( is that the right context?) bla bla there are.

My way of dealing with it is to take the education on offer, to keep a close eye on how my child is doing, and to be prepared to make a fuss! But I suppose thats relatively easy for me, as I was a pupil there, and I know the weaknesses and the hierarchies and so on.

In fact, its only through getting into this thread that I have realised the difficulties others have had, and that I am 'lucky' to feel assured about what I'm choosing, and equipped to deal with any problems. I still don't agree about the 'secretive' nature of the Anthro side to things. As I've said, all the schools I have looked into are pretty upfront about it, and the information is all there for the reading, though I can see why many parents don't, as it is deeply odd and dare I say boring - but it is there.

I suppose what I'm saying is that I feel that the curriculum and education have the potential to be good - if delivered effectively by professionals who are aware of their responsibilities ('ethical' above Anthroposophical) to the individual child and their development, needs, and welfare. But the Steiner path is not IMO one to be taken on a whim, without research and careful thought - that is the parents' responsibility.

Whether I agree with your opinions or not is immaterial - to my mind, if this is how people are feeling about their experiences, then Steiner HQ should know, and should really look hard at where they are going right and wrong - in fact I am tempted to email this thread to every school in the country, with an invitation to respond.

Oh Stripey

"As I've said, all the schools I have looked into are pretty upfront about it, and the information is all there for the reading,"-

that's just not the case- is it?
Could you point me to their websites with the upfront information about the occult, re incarnation, spiritual science aspect of the anthroposophy they're based on? Please?

"without research and careful thought - that is the parents' responsibility. "

No- it's the parents responsibility AND the responsibility of the school not to be duplicitous in their evasion and selective perception.

As to emailing Steiner organisations and asking them- they won't do it. I emailed the Steiner Schools Fellowship- they wouldn't put anything in writing about anthroposophy- but invited me to ring them. I had a completely pointles round and round conversation with a top- supposedly - man- not unlike this thread actually.....
One school emailed me back - with a hilarious piece that said nothing in very bad english- then went cold- no more.
They don't help themselves with this.

There is a similar thread on
youtube

STripey said

The Anthro side to things should never be allowed to mean that bullying (for example) is ignored, or that SEN should be waffled away as karma or reincarnation or whatever.

But that's exactly what happened to us - we were told that ds1's fine motor skills problems were because he'd done something 'wrong' with his hands in a previous life = and that because of this previous life 'sin' his soul wasn't ready to reincarnate - when I said I wasn't prepared to talk about my son's special needs in that way I was told "you have to accept that everyone in the school will look at your son in those terms"

When I told the sing-songy witch who was ds1's kindy teacher that he was leaving, she told me that we were making a very big mistake, that we would regret it and that it would damage ds's soul for ever - and she said this right in front of a 5 year old !!!!

and guess what, I've never regretted him leaving, not for one milli-second - in fact, a couple of years later we were driving past the school and ds suddenly said "that's kindy - I hated kindy and I hated C.... (witch teacher)" and even though it was two years since he'd left, there was such passion in his voice that the experience had obviously been pretty hideous for him

You have jumped to some wild and nasty conclusions about me Cote, all based on the fact that you and I have a difference of opinion on education and alernative health care and probably many more subjects that hopefully we will never discover. I chose to contribute to this thread to share with Rantmum my opinion and I fully expected that others would have a different opinion, but I certainly didn't expect it to degenerate to the degree that it has. I guess Rantmum has heard enough to form an opinion by now and like many other contributors have ceased posting -they are all obviously far wiser than I.

I don't know why you think I have used 'profanity' or been 'foul mouthed'. I haven't told you to F%^#@ Off have I?

I am genuinely concerned that you seem to be expending a lot of emotional energy on this matter when your child has not even been exposed to the Steiner environment. I would have thought that your experience of feeling not properly informed upfront by the organisation that you applied to may have left you feeling slightly disgruntled, rapidly followed by finding a more satisfactory alternative for her and getting happy with that. On the other hand Fugee IMO with her extensive contact with the system and her dissatisfaction with it is proportionally more justified in feeling betrayed and needing to vent and share.

I don't know what you are referring to regarding my education - you don't know anything about it except that I went to a Catholic High School and onto Uni. For all you know I could have a PHD and be a member of MENSA. I certainly was not educated in the Steiner system. But I am not going to get into a "Mine is bigger than yours" competition with you.

I don't know why it is so controversial to say that certain countries have a bit of a history that has resulted in some stereotypical prejudices. English and French, USA and France, USA and Canada, NZ and France, English and Irish etc etc etc. I also have some French heritage - and Welsh and English and Scandinavian and Scottish. I love the NZ Bumper sticker/t-shirt that reads: "I support The All Blacks, and anyone playing Australia" Emotions like these are seldom rational/scientific but ingrained to some degree none-the-less, hopefully lessening with the passing of time/generations and the smaller and more tolerant of diveristy that the world becomes.

As I have said before - I think that each Steiner school has to be judged on its own merits as they can differ significantly in their approaches and philosphy. I found the same thing when I researched into Montessori schools too. Mimsum's experience sounds absolutely indefensible, and yet in regard of discipline and bullying my experience has been the complete opposite to date, with DS1's pre-school basically using time outs and teaching children to be empathetic and caring with each other.

I wish everyone all the best with their children's education regardless of the path that we as parents select for them. I am sure when they are all 14 or so we will hear about all the 'wrong' decisions that we have made on their behalf .

Rantmum went pages ago- she decided against Steiner Waldorf education noe she's fully aware of the pros and cons.

sorry to jump in like this but i think some schools are a lot more hard core than others unfortunately. so whilst some people may be praising their steiner school from the rooftops people like mimsum will be saying very negative things about it cos of the bad experience they had at their school.

"I think that each Steiner school has to be judged on its own merits as they can differ significantly in their approaches and philosphy"

But Aussie- they don't differ in their philosophy atall- that's the whole point- - their philosophy is Steiner's philosophy- anthro based.

Perhaps it's fair to say they differ in APPROACH- which seems apparent here- but the basic fact that Steiner schools follow Steiner's philosophy/spiritual science/religion whatever you want to call it- is there and can't be denied, unless Steiner is removed from the picture.

And imo, following this guru, the teachings of one man, without leaway, brings it into the domain of a cult.

Mimismum- that's so awful- I really feel for you. My youngest still comes out with such unkind and - well - cruel things that happened in kindy. Young kids don't always express things at the time. They think 'cos you leave them there with confidence, that's the way it is. She used to cling and get "tummy aches", so often I wouldn't send her. These wonderful, singing teachers allowed terrible bullying- half the time didn't notice, but left it in a Lord of the Flies stituation, or they shouted alot apparently- with really small kids. I know that happens everywhere- but when I think of that midwich cukko glassy stare of some of those kids- it must have been a shtting down, fear, I don't know- but NOT NICE.

nappy- you're right. I think we all agree on that. There are some far more hard core.
After all the teachers are - presumably- reasonable human beings whose intentions are good , one would hope.

The issue is the Steiner phiosophy/ religion etc. It's the underpin of all the schools that call themselves Steiner.

And it's how this spiritual science/religion is used that's the crux of the matter imo.

If the parents are deliberately kept in the dark about this spiritual science- that's where the problems or even dangers can arise.

Open up Steiner schools.

You know- inthat youtube link Barking- there are no black or asian kids- not even any mixed race. Mnnn

Northernrefugee39 - yes, very disturbing

Mimsum - When we were leaving, the teacher phoned up to try and change our minds - she said it could take up to a year for him to settle (we were a year in the other steiner nursery before we moved). When we took him to his local primary he loved it from the minute he walked through the doors.

Another thing I have just remembered were the teachers stating a number of times:

'The child chooses his/her parents'.

Very reassuring on one level - but what does this say to the child who has 'chosen' violent/abusive parents?

Aussiesim - you said:

"If I sent DS1 to the local mainstream school he would be learning from his peers how to impersonate ninja turtles, spiderman, batman, superman a-la-suvival-of-the-fittest and from his teachers he would be treated like a lab rat pushing him to read and write in a highly competitive environment.

IME of "our" steiner school the Anthro is quite muted. We love him learning about nature, and the seasons and baking and cooking and even watery painting. The final year results for this school are in the top 10% of the state plus he will come out tri-lingual. IMO this beats handsdown any mainstream offering".

I find this incredibly offensive, these were among the many 'myths' peddled at my local steiner school - fear of the outside world.

We don't all let our children watch tv, I know plenty of parents who don't, (I also know steiner children who watch tv) I think there is a quiet revolution underway - parents are asking so many questions of themselves in this day and age.

We our lucky enough to live in the country. Our local primary school feeds my children healthy organic lunches grown by the nearby farm. Many of the children have grown their own lunches 'from seed to plate'. They embark on regular expeditions - next week they are off fossil hunting. I need to say all this because I hate the idea that you think the state schools experience is an uncaring, synthetic one.

I also remember reading somewhere that the spirit of the original steiner schools were set up to imitate the home. As I have said in an earlier post - we bake our own bread, and our children learn about nature though experience - for free. One doesn't have to pay a steiner school to 'teach' nature'.
Nature is its own teacher.

I take your point barking and did not mean to cause offense, but I was talking about where I live, which sounds considerably different to your idyllic lifestyle. I spent the afternoon baking with my 5yo and we have our own vege patch, but we are very very much in the minority and I don't want that to be DS1's experience at school.

barking - Interesting to see how that youtube thread mirrors this one. Here is one post:

"Degrading me and talking to me like I am an ignorant little girl will not prove anything to anyone except that you are in fact immature and can only defend Anthroposophy by making those who disagree look as though they are ignorant and don't know what they are talking about. If we are all so wrong then why don't you tell us why rather than being rude and degrading."

Rather familiar, isn't it?

i agree with aussiesim. most primary schools aren't like that barking. if you are lucky enough to have a local primary school like that fair enough. the main reason i am thinking of steiner education for my child is i think 4 is way too early to start full time school and i hate the idea of sats at the age of 6.

mimsum - how terrible for you & your DS

Aussiesim, re:

"some wild and nasty conclusions about me Cote, all based on the fact that you and I have a difference of opinion "

No. Difference of opinion is what Stripey and I have. You, on the other hand, have resorted to calling me names ('ignoramus') and saying I have 'had bugger all's experience with Steiner, or any other education facility for that matter by the sounds of things'. As a result, I concluded that you are the kind of person who cannot articulate her thoughts without resorting to personal attacks.

"I don't know what you are referring to regarding my education"

I have been referring to your exposure to Steiner education during your formative years. Was that not clear enough for you?

"For all you know I could have a PHD and be a member of MENSA."

Not to hurt your feelings, but we all know that would be fantastically unlikely, my dear. The ad hominems could possibly survive a university education in those of us with less of an intellectual disposition, but I have to insist that someone with a PhD would at least know how to spell it.

"I don't know why it is so controversial to say that certain countries have a bit of a history that has resulted in some stereotypical prejudices."

Bravo! It is a stereotype. And a prejudice. You have basically agreed with me regarding the invalidity of your argument that French government lists Steiner schools among cults because they don't like Germans. This is the kind of argument that shows you are... well... non-MENSA and non-PhD

I have to say, though, that whoever you asked to write this post for you has done a better job of putting sentences together than you have in your previous posts.

"Are you playing dumb?"

"I am beginning to wonder if it is even an act"

Not exactly polite...

But I don't think its helpful to the otherwise interesting debate to get caught up in insults.