Have I done my poor kid a grave disservice in sending him to an independent school?

[Firstgenuni]

I was the first (and only) generation of our family to go to university - as was dh. My parents scrimped and remortgaged to send me to a v middling independent (on a scholarship), and I got a place at Oxford. Dh went state until sixth form, and also got to Oxford, where we met, yadda yadda. My parents (mum is an immigrant, dad left school at 15) always said that there won’t be any inheritance (and there really won’t be!), but my education was their investment in my future.

I did take this to heart, and ds (Year 12) has been in the local independent since reception, for other reasons too (a huge teacher discount of 66% for junior and senior schools being the main one, and load of extracurricular stuff handily on site <given we both work full time> being the other main reason.)
Uni admissions didn’t figure in decisions we made way back. His fair-sized school gets about 15 kids into Oxbridge a year, so good, but no St Paul’s, etc (about 80 apply, I think)

Ds now has his heart set on natural sciences on Cambridge. I know nothing about it - both dh and I did humanities subjects. But we tell him to use the internet to search up natural science taster sessions and essay competitions and online courses, and see what interesting things he can find.
He’s now finding that there just aren’t many things available.

Pembroke college, for instance, that he loves the sound of, is running a taster event for natural sciences - online, but ‘due to capacity restrictions, successful applicants must be attending a UK state school.’ It’s online, ffs!

Newnham college (yes I know he can’t go there ) runs all their essays for UK state schools only now, despite a friend of ds’s at a neighbouring independent winning one of their prizes just last year. Is this the way things are going?

I’ve chatted to his head of sixth, and they are very much offering advice like yes, we are encouraging applications to the Ivy League now too, and look at this great summer course by invest costing over £400. . Meanwhile, his cousin enjoyed a totally free materials science course run in the hols by a major independent as part of their ‘outreach to state schools’ - but is at a very well-respected grammar, with a good sized Oxbridge cohort anyway!

We don’t have £400 for fancy courses. We don’t have lots of connections like a lot of wealthier parents seem to. I feel extremely sad that I have, inadvertently, made it so much more difficult for ds to achieve his ambition.

Obviously he is reading science books out of the school library and pursuing the topics that he is interested in, and he’s watching videos and listening to podcasts, but what can he do to impress that doesn’t cost money, but isn’t restricted to state school students?

And I know I’ll get a load of flack for complaining, but it really feels as though things are being made extra difficult for ds for being the ‘poor relation’ in an independent- and it’s my fault. [eyeroll]

You have done really well to educate him as he is and do keep him in the private school. None of my private school educated children tried for Oxbridge although my siblings went and they have cousins there. Four of my 5 children are lawyers - 2 alerady and 2 shortly and their London legal careers and accompanying high pay has not been held back by not being Oxbridge (3 went to Bristol).

your son should have a think about careers and what he wants to earn and work back from there. Oxbridge is not the only route to a high paid professional career. Of the top 130 law firms eg. about 15% of new trainees come from Oxbridge, 6% Durham, 5% Bristol etc. You can pick any other high paid profession and it will be similar. So do not worry at all. The things he has been taught at school will stay with him for life at his fee paying school. My son's friend tried Oxbridge but didn't get in and he has a very good job in a top accountancy firm straight from university.

This is the sort of situation that the phrase "check your privilege" was invented for!

@Longcovid21, honestly, NatSci is not a biology course. It is an interdisciplinary sciences course. I don't know why you're confused about this.

Ok for those criticising the OP for not being able to afford the course, my parents used debt financing to pay for my private education. They couldn't afford it but my Dad worked for a company that offered its staff education loans for their children and they were still paying off those loans long after I'd left home. People choose to send their kids to private schools even when (shock horror) they're not that wealthy.

Oxbridge isn't all being about being a high flier. I'm not a high flier but I wouldn't want to have missed out on that experience. Nor would I want to have missed the confidence that it still gives me that despite my life not having amounted to very much, I was still intelligent to get into a good university.

Go to science festivals and look for work experience. The festivals are aimed at everyone from children to PhDs. (Although I don't know if the festivals are still running in these covid times.They are free. ) We went to the festivals at Cambridge University and Imperial College. While we were at Cambridge, we asked everyone if they could give DD work experience.
Somebody at Cambridge asked her for her CV and sent it to all her contacts. A researcher at Imperial College offered DD work experience in a lab, which she loved.

Ok for those criticising the OP for not being able to afford the course, my parents used debt financing to pay for my private education.

Well that was a silly thing to do.

There’s no guaranteed return, and merely ‘getting into a good university’ isn’t enough to secure a well paying job at the end, particularly for arty/abstract subjects.

it amazes me that people break their backs to send their kids to private school, so they can just end up doing the same for their own kids. Where is the emotional payback in all of this?

You are underestimating the huge help your son gets just by being at the school (assuming it’s a good indie school, it would do far more prep than a grammar), the free taster sessions for state schools are just to give them a tiny amount of the same prep.

so yep you will have to pay for more, and if you Really wanted to find 400 quid, I’m guessing you could.

if he’s really clever he’ll have a good chance of getting in. If he is just bright he probably won’t, but there are plenty of Russell Groups he could get into. Do look at Ivy League, I know US fees sound eye watering but they are so rich there are an awful lot of scholarships.

@Organictangerine

A) How would you have a clue whether it was sensible or not for the PPs parents to do that?

B) Independent schools do give kids a better chance of well paying jobs (see Sutton Trust report), especially in arty/abstract careers where confidence and networking are more important than exam results.

Not everyone who goes to an independent school is going to go on to a high paid career of course, and that’s often by choice, but I expect the OPs parents are happy with how she’s done. If her son is bright and wants to natural sciences he’ll get a well paying career if he wants one.

think before you froth.

Imagine if state school parents were moaning about their kids not being able to go private as they didn’t have the money; private school parents would be all ‘sorry but that’s life, it’s not always fair’

but when the system is ‘unfair’ to their kids they’re outraged!

I’m not frothing at all.

I just think taking out huge loans to send your child to private school, isn’t a great decision, placed purely on the odds.

The wage difference between those who went to private school and those who didn’t is 17%. Or a difference of £150 a week. Private school costs much more than that. You don’t really get the money back and even if you did, inflation and property prices mean the money isn’t worth as much.

if you’ve got money to burn you would be best off saving it for your child’s house or flat deposit, and spending the rest on private tuition and extra curricular.

You know nothing about my family. Neither of my parents went to uni and my mum got pregnant at 15. They decided to send me to private school (all girls) as they thought that would mean I wouldn't end up pregnant as a teenager.

🤷🏼‍♀️

@Organictangerine We're in a similar position. Most of our income goes on school fees for our DD and I don't care for financial return or whether she gets a high paying job at the end of it.

Education stays for life and the love of learning, good manners, and positive outlook on life are worth the fees which would otherwise be used for what? A slightly bigger box to live in?

You are undervaluing a good education if you look purely at salary.

Why can’t you have those things at a grammar school or decent comprehensive? With extra tuition and extra curricular activities, extra holidays, sports coaching, money to pursue other hobbies?

A ‘bigger box’ - no. Perhaps a bigger house with a big garden and room for animals if you enjoy that kind of thing (I would love chickens and a horse!).

But I intend to spend my money on family holidays, helping Dd with extra tuition and hobbies, and giving her a healthy deposit for a house or flat. I just don’t think private schools will survive the next 30 years with the same level of prestige and advantage, given everything going on.

Plus I’m baffled you think good manners are the remit of private school kids. And quite tickled actually 😄Boris, anyone?!

You would. But the added value is still huge.

My friends' kids, of the same age as mine, and another set of mutual friends', went to a very good independent school. The opportunities that they had for mentoring, for work experience (in The City, of course) and for making contacts, were phenomenal.

At A level, those kids actually got slightly lower grades than my two and the mutual friends' two, all in decent state comps. But they got into unis that one wouldn't have expected, and after that, walked straight into graduate opportunities that led them to making mega money in no time at all.

They're lovely people. I don't want to begrudge them anything, but the difference in the lives of the six 'kids' now is remarkable. And it has to be down to the difference in opportunities and contacts that my friends' cash bought them.

No-one should begrudge taster sessions and short courses for kids without those massive advantages.

@Organictangerine The prestige is a downside right now but the advantage - how do you see that closing in the next 30 years? Either state schools need to improve to the level of Indy's without Indy's improving at all, or society (universities, job vacancies) will need to introduce artificial barriers to block indy pupils to "level the playing field".

But that's still only looking at economics. Getting a private tutor may bring up the grades, but that's not what makes the person. Manners (or more attitude) is something that isnt tought so much as picked up from their environment, ambitious friends, high expectations, debating, public speaking, critical thinking classes, leadership sessions, wider vocabulary and the "soft skills". These are real advantages that will stay with them and give them the ability and fortitude to make their own way in life. I do think that's better than giving them a big deposit for a house or having a horse (we do have chickens though, I'm with you on that one 😊).

@saraclara I do take issue with this "contacts" nonsense. How exactly does this work? Because when large companies interview there are tests to pass, multiple interviews where 2 interviewers must be present etc. How exactly am I going to get my mates who perhaps studied medicine and veterinary a job as a programmer?

It's more likely they firstly had the confidence to apply, then when they do they also have the soft skills to do well to in the interview.

Ok, we will have to agree to disagree. My family are a mix of private education and state. I went to a grammar school. My sister went private, as did my dad and DH. Other siblings state school, as did most of my friends.

i think you’re confusing ‘manners’ with ‘eloquence’. They’re not the same thing. It’s sort of window dressing, you can’t make someone more intelligent than their natural maximum, but you can window dress them to make them appear more intelligent - that’s what private schools do. Manners are installed by parents and can’t be bought.

my sister and dad don’t feel they benefited from their expensive private schools - my sister left at 16 to go to sixth form at the local grammar. They both felt friendships at private schools tend to be quite shallow, a lot of popularity and social life revolves around the richest kids and how much they could scratch each other’s backs, with friends vanishing the moment they no longer had a need for each other.

as for the barriers, well that’s why this thread is here! So that’s already happening.

My friend was entirely open about the fact that both his kids got their jobs through introductions made via their school network,and through the work experience they'd been lined up with via the school and alumni.

Of course they needed to be competent to get those jobs, but trying to deny that the old school network doesn't massively open doors that state school kids don't even know exist, is ridiculous. And whether conscious or not, the connections and shared experience makes one candidate step into the sun way more easily when interviewed. It's human nature.

That’s interesting and might explain why my son (at an indie for a levels - but having gone to a pretty ‘normal’ comp for GCSEs - one people move away from the area instead is sending their kids too, although mine thrive there!), got an interview at oxbridge over his equally bright friends.

He still didn’t get a place though! Which in his case is a good thing as I think he’ll have a better, more enjoyable time at his other choices.

@Organictangerine there's no natural maximum intelligence, some children may have an easier time grasping things than others, but even if there was you surely don't think it would be achieved equally whichever school a child attended would you?

Also, why would manners be the solely instilled by the parents alone. They are picked up from their environment, especially their peers. The bounds of what is acceptable is set by the school and the home. Otherwise why would you care which state school your child goes to? They will do equally well wherever they go right?

Manners (perhaps the wrong word admittedly) embodies how a person presents themselves, communicates, their values, their respectfulness, confidence, work ethic. These are not just a window dressing for intelligence and intelligence is not the only important trait.

We can discuss anecdotal evidence but the advantages are self evident in society.

@NeverDropYourMooncup

He's had an education away from the reality of the State sector, where there isn't enough money, huge numbers of kids with behavioural issues, huge numbers from lives with no knowledge of anything other than poverty and hopelessness, where opportunity is limited to the amount that can be scraped together from UC or the PPG. He's grown up knowing that friends' parents are doctors, solicitors, judges, actuaries, architects, etc, and it's normal - instead of it being normal for a single parent to be scraping by on care work/ZHC and not being able to put any money into the parentpay account.

I find this paragraph so wholly offensive. It's no surprise that this country has such a yawning inequality gap.

Do seriously consider the advice about US colleges.

There are some excellent options on offer and if the grades are there, you can get financial support. It's a long winded process, but worth investigating.

Of course there’s maximum intelligence. Do you think the right amount of private education could make anyone Einstein? Of course not. Some people are just naturally more intelligent than others. Usually in specific areas, ie maths, science or languages etc.

Private schools instill confidence (sometimes arrogance) but I don’t think it does much for the rest, particularly work ethic as it’s a very spoon-fed environment. I’m not trying to be rude or contrary. I’m genuinely basing my opinion on my personal anecdotal evidence (as I’m sure you are). I have one friend whose brother went to a top (think royal alumni) private school, she was at my grammar. She commented that she’s very proud of her achievements as she knows they all came from her own hard work and talent; whereas the brother simply got his job through connections. He’s very able and capable of doing the job but didn’t win it through merit.

I definitely think you’re confusing the window dressing with genuine attributes.