Have I done my poor kid a grave disservice in sending him to an independent school?

[Firstgenuni]

I was the first (and only) generation of our family to go to university - as was dh. My parents scrimped and remortgaged to send me to a v middling independent (on a scholarship), and I got a place at Oxford. Dh went state until sixth form, and also got to Oxford, where we met, yadda yadda. My parents (mum is an immigrant, dad left school at 15) always said that there won’t be any inheritance (and there really won’t be!), but my education was their investment in my future.

I did take this to heart, and ds (Year 12) has been in the local independent since reception, for other reasons too (a huge teacher discount of 66% for junior and senior schools being the main one, and load of extracurricular stuff handily on site <given we both work full time> being the other main reason.)
Uni admissions didn’t figure in decisions we made way back. His fair-sized school gets about 15 kids into Oxbridge a year, so good, but no St Paul’s, etc (about 80 apply, I think)

Ds now has his heart set on natural sciences on Cambridge. I know nothing about it - both dh and I did humanities subjects. But we tell him to use the internet to search up natural science taster sessions and essay competitions and online courses, and see what interesting things he can find.
He’s now finding that there just aren’t many things available.

Pembroke college, for instance, that he loves the sound of, is running a taster event for natural sciences - online, but ‘due to capacity restrictions, successful applicants must be attending a UK state school.’ It’s online, ffs!

Newnham college (yes I know he can’t go there ) runs all their essays for UK state schools only now, despite a friend of ds’s at a neighbouring independent winning one of their prizes just last year. Is this the way things are going?

I’ve chatted to his head of sixth, and they are very much offering advice like yes, we are encouraging applications to the Ivy League now too, and look at this great summer course by invest costing over £400. . Meanwhile, his cousin enjoyed a totally free materials science course run in the hols by a major independent as part of their ‘outreach to state schools’ - but is at a very well-respected grammar, with a good sized Oxbridge cohort anyway!

We don’t have £400 for fancy courses. We don’t have lots of connections like a lot of wealthier parents seem to. I feel extremely sad that I have, inadvertently, made it so much more difficult for ds to achieve his ambition.

Obviously he is reading science books out of the school library and pursuing the topics that he is interested in, and he’s watching videos and listening to podcasts, but what can he do to impress that doesn’t cost money, but isn’t restricted to state school students?

And I know I’ll get a load of flack for complaining, but it really feels as though things are being made extra difficult for ds for being the ‘poor relation’ in an independent- and it’s my fault. [eyeroll]

If you really want to game the system, see if you can get him into a local state school now for the rest of sixth form so he can apply from there.

(FWIW, I have done Cambridge admissions for a subject - not natsci - that regularly gets applicants who try the 'my interdisciplinary interests' line when what's actually happening is 1) they're not really a good fit for the course or 2) they don't understand what the course is about. If it's option 1 that's fine; they'll be better somewhere else. If it's option 2, it's often stressful because in an interview you have a relatively short amount of time in which to try to unpick whether a candidate who's been inadequately/badly advised would, even so, enjoy the course and be good at it.

I think natural sciences is an unusually broad course but I don't actually agree subjects at university are more interdisciplinary than at A level. In some ways they are less so. A bright student at A Level ought to be able to grasp a wide range of related subjects and do well. A bright undergraduate will probably realise that, even though they were good at Physics A Level, their talents are really in organic chemistry, or whatever. They will start to develop a specialism.

I used to do Cambridge admissions. The main thing you need to do to get in, on top of reading beyond your AL course independently following your own passions, is to be able to think out loud in the interview and really chew on an intellectual problem in a structured and analytical way.

Sometimes people come in for interview and bang on about being in the school rowing team or whatever - there’s no point because no marks are given for that kind of thing, unless you painstakingly reinvented your team’s boat with a new kind of aerodynamics, and you can discuss it intricately and relevantly, something crazy like that.

Sometimes people come in for interview and freeze because they are the only really clever person in their isolated and underfunded sixth form. We will normally do everything we can to help them unfurl in the interview but sometimes we end up advising them to come back a year later and try again. They rarely do. It’s sad because unless you say something in the interview you can’t get a mark for it.

if your son wants to study NatSci, the best way forward, aside from Olympiads etc (which do work) is developing a research mindset and setting up his own intellectual enquiry in addition to anything he is doing for AL. Something challenging where he really wants to find out the answer. And being able to talk about it if asked, applying his learning to other situations and scenarios.

But it’s always a bit of a lottery. We miss talent as often as we spot it. So try UCL, Imperial, etc as well. All the degrees and employment paths are comparable these days.

This x1000!!!!

My kids are at a private school. A few of their mates have struggled in recent years re university entry (state v private)....loads of parents citing discrimination. I am genuinely speechless at their lack of awareness.

(And I am not even sure it is a state v private issue either tbh, just there are more too many good candidates v places.)

I have some sympathy for the OP. My DD is at Oxford (just about to graduate) and has met several students there who went on these courses. They were in state schools but in no way disadvantaged. They were largely in grammar schools or in state schools where you need a high income to get a house in the catchment area. Most had supplemented their application with extra tutoring support. This anecdotal evidence correlates with much of the research that shows that independent school Oxbridge applicants are largely being replaced by grammar school students from the wealthier areas of the SE of England. Children with true socio-economic disadvantage are still largely failing to find a place in these prestigious universities.

I would also agree with the poster and threads that say Oxbridge is becoming less and less relevant for many careers. With the exception of academic careers a few straggling law and IB firms more and more organisations are using online assessment and university blind admissions processes to select for graduate schemes.

Occupier, what counts is where you got your GCSEs from, so that won’t really work.

With what are effectively quotas for state and private (I know, I know, they are “targets”), there is no advantage or disadvantage to being state or private.

In the end, Oxbridge don’t have enough places for all the able students, whether state or private. There are many very able students going to other excellent UK universities. Encourage him to take a shot at Cambridge, but don’t make it the be all end all. I think people overhype Oxbridge.

DS is in his second year of this course. Although he went to a state school, the supracurricular activities he did were not solely open to state students.

These are some of the things he mentioned in his personal statement:

Senior Physics Challenge / Isaac Physics awards and residential summer school: open to any student attending school in the UK.
Long-term research project through Institute of Research in Schools: open to any school who has signed up.
A lecture he attended and a book he read: unrelated to school.
Q&A answer published in New Scientist: anyone can do this.
Harvard Book Prize: not restricted to state schools.

To be honest I think they were more interested in his NSAA score and performance at interview (being asked to solve unfamiliar problems which got gradually harder). One of the interviewers did ask about the research project, but I think that was just an ice breaker to put DS at his ease.

Many of his classmates are international students or from independent schools.

(He wanted to enter the Physics Olympiad but his school did not enter any students for it, despite him asking several times)

@thingymaboob - yes he needs to be super bright but they really don’t give a monkey’s about the co curricula stuff.

His personal statement was 95% Physics related (because that's the course he applied for at the other four choices). On Cambridge's supplementary application questionnaire, he wrote a couple of paragraphs about his interest in other / interdisciplinary science. I think he wrote about Fourier transforms and X-ray crystallography in the study of the structure of chlorophyll?

He also helped in KS3 Science and KS4 Maths lessons throughout his time in sixth form, offering learning support. Again, something that a student at any type of school could do.

OP you have certainly not done a disservice to your son by sending him to an independent school. His school should have processes in place to prepare him to apply to universities and know what's expected so I would steer him in their direction for advice.

OP there was a Cambridge Natural Sciences, virtual masterclass at the end of March. All Cambridge virtual masterclasses in March and April were open to both independent and state school students. Your school had to nominate/register students for some (but not all) of these. Your son might want to investigate whether there are recordings available.

Cambridge also ran a 6th Form residential Law Conference in April, again open to independent and state school students. I think they may have run other similar conferences. It is true that individual colleges have a host of classes open to state school students to level the playing field, but others invite both.

I would suggest booking a visit on the Open Days at Cambridge (7th and 8th July, but I'm sure your son will know this) and go attend lectures and visit Colleges. He should also start reading around the subject and be able to demonstrate a genuine interest and passion for it, as well as motivation (and ability of course). I think it's a fallacy to think that one type of school increases the chances of Oxbridge entry and that you have done a disservice to your son.

So you have a huge discount at an independent school for your DS (one of you is a teacher?!) and you are both Oxbridge educated yourselves… I think
your DS will be fine.
Maybe get him to tutor disadvantaged kids in Science for free, that kind of thing might make him stand out. Service to community etc

For the record, moving your kids for sixth form doesn’t make them more likely to get in! Oxbridge aren’t stupid and look at where you did your GCSEs.

i send lots of students to the sorts of events your son looked at. They’re great for giving those who don’t know much about Oxbridge an insight and encouraging any who might think it’s not for them. No need for that usually for someone at a school where 15 a year are getting in. They don’t make you more likely to get in as they’re just information events or supercurricular talks. His school will be able to recommend lots of essay competitions which are open to him. There are loads (I also do this as part of my job). He can also choose to do an epq, do independent research projects as part of his courses, enter the relevant Olympiad/challenges, ie do all the stuff that his school almost certainly already lays on. Ask if they pay for supercurricular services (they will do - unlike most of the broke libraries of state schools!)

but for Natsci the main thing is to ace the admissions test anyway. And he will probably have supportive teachers who will help him prepare. The state schools I work with don’t usually have capacity for specialist preparation classes so the kids have to figure it out for themselves, having also been in much larger A level classes with much poorer facilities. There is NO WAY your son is disadvantaged. He just might be slightly less over privileged by the system than he would have been 20 years ago.

92% of kids attend state schools, around 40% of entrants to oxbridge colleges are from private schools ... despite the outreaf programmes! You don't is already advantaged.

My dd did the trinity college Cambridge summer school years ago, she had to meet at least one category of deprivation/criteria, I think (years back!) they were first in the family to university, school where they took GCSEs in special measures, family on means tested benefits, live in a deprived postcode, disability, looked after/former looked after kids. So not even nice middle class families from grammar schools. (My dd has a disability and her school was in special measures)

My oldest son, very clever but not a genius did Natural Sciences at Cambridge. Local Comp then Further Education College for Sixth Form. I am sure his secondary route it did him no harm. He did Dual Award Sciences at GCSE. However, not unexpectedly, he did very well at A Level and really well in his Step papers. He did very well at Cambridge and followed his degree with an MBA. He is a CEO of a prestigious company now. I think independent schools are a waste of money in terms of academic success. There are so many great state schools out there.There is no way that he and his wife will consider private schools for their very clever children

My friend’s DD is on a “staircase” (me neither) with 7 others at Oxford and the question isn’t whether they went to an independent school, it’s whether they boarded or not. She’s from a state 6th form and feels like an alien!

This absolutely.

Op I take it you work at school? Not being rude but if that’s what the best of the best chose as a career does Oxbridge matter anyway? I mean there are fantastic inspirational teachers from every educational background.
What does your DS see for his life long term? The prestige of going to the best school or Uni is just a small part of a bigger journey.

Natural Sciences at Cambridge is insanely competitive. They only admit those who are already head / shoulders above and really that doesn't happen from fancy courses or connections. My brother did Natural Sciences at Cambridge, he was offered unconditional entry (i.e. he could have failed all his A level and they'd still offer him the place). He was at an all boys independent school. Our parents didn't have fancy connections nor did he do any courses. He did however get some award for having performed in the top 1% in the country for his physics A levels ... I was actually looking at the award over Easter - it's still framed on the wall at Mum and Dad's along with the many other prizes / awards he got over the years lol

They look at who is the brightest, not where you went to school.

Of course you haven't done your DC a disservice. Who can know how he'd have performed at a state school? Probably very well, given his intelligence and home support. But most state schools don't focus on top universities as a matter of routine. I'm not talking about the kind of superselective grammars and sixth forms that send a huge Oxbridge contingent out every year, but ordinary schools, where Oxford and Cambridge candidates are rare, and successful ones even more so. These kids are very much self-starters. They find out about summer schools, competitions etc themselves. They download past entrance papers and work through them with no help or tuition from anybody else. If they ace those papers, and they'll need to, there's not likely to be much in the way of experienced help to guide them to prepare for interview.
If you think that would have been better for your DC, maybe you made the wrong call about what kind of school to send them to. But I suspect you don't.

So many exceptional candidates don't even apply to Oxbridge because their school/ parents/ background make them feel like it isn't for them. I don't begrudge them opportunities for tasters to discover that they could thrive there.

I was also the first in my family to go to uni and went to Cambridge. Recognise that these schemes aren't for kids like yours. He has you and the school to give him the confidence to apply already.

That’s not actually the case though. 20% go to a private sixth form. And bursaries/ scholarships are going to be awarded to a high percentage of clever kids from less affluent backgrounds who couldn’t otherwise attend.

personally I think much of it is about being seen to be PC rather than anything else otherwise why would grammar schools be included when those children are generally just as privileged. If your child attends a grammar school or a nice comp I don’t think they’ve been hugely disadvantaged. The children I think most in need of consideration are those with SEN/ health conditions/ difficult situations/ deprivation which impacts on their ability to learn. We just seem to have exchanged one unfair system for another

Why does it have to be Cambridge? Isn't it more important that he does what he wants to do rather than obsessing over where he does it? In the end, its just a name. It's about time we dumped this elitist snobbery that the value of your degree is higher or lower depending upon which uni you got it from.