Do private schools give bursaries/scholarships to parents with decent salaries?

[Alyosha]

I feel certain that the answer to this will be "no" but wanted to check.

We have two DS, 3 and 3 months. We both have good jobs, joint salary is over £100k, very comfortable and we have no complaints about our standard of living. We live in London, where private school fees seem to have gone absolutely nuts. I went to SHHS which was £9k pa by time I left in 2007; so very expensive but would be just about affordable for me & DH for 2 DCs. Occasionally they send me a begging letter asking me to donate for their fund to build a world class music centre...can't say I'm too motivated to donate now their fees are pushing £20k pa.

I can't see any way that we could afford school fees for both boys in 2- 3 year's time even with our good incomes. But looking at the support available it's only if you're earning under £80k. But there's no way I would have thought a family jointly earning £80k could afford £20k in school fees for 2 children (£40k net a year!) with mortgage, council tax, utilities, groceries etc.

So our only option would be a scholarship, but most scholarships seem to be 20% max off fees, which doesn't make them affordable, especially not long term. Is there anywhere that has substantial fee remission for a scholarship in commuting distance of North London, either primary or secondary?

This is of course assuming the DCs would even get scholarships, which I realise is a tall order!

@Alyosha

I feel certain that the answer to this will be "no" but wanted to check.

We have two DS, 3 and 3 months. We both have good jobs, joint salary is over £100k, very comfortable and we have no complaints about our standard of living. We live in London, where private school fees seem to have gone absolutely nuts. I went to SHHS which was £9k pa by time I left in 2007; so very expensive but would be just about affordable for me & DH for 2 DCs. Occasionally they send me a begging letter asking me to donate for their fund to build a world class music centre...can't say I'm too motivated to donate now their fees are pushing £20k pa.

I can't see any way that we could afford school fees for both boys in 2- 3 year's time even with our good incomes. But looking at the support available it's only if you're earning under £80k. But there's no way I would have thought a family jointly earning £80k could afford £20k in school fees for 2 children (£40k net a year!) with mortgage, council tax, utilities, groceries etc.

So our only option would be a scholarship, but most scholarships seem to be 20% max off fees, which doesn't make them affordable, especially not long term. Is there anywhere that has substantial fee remission for a scholarship in commuting distance of North London, either primary or secondary?

This is of course assuming the DCs would even get scholarships, which I realise is a tall order!

Scholarships are normally offered 11+ and has very little monetary value, ie. 5% -10% off.

We are outside London, Private education fees are more less the same as full-time nursery fees. If you are able to pay for nursery, you will be very likely to pay for future private education. Given your description, it is doable and funding in the future is easier than you think as your career progresses.

Visit the schools now rather than waiting until your DC's school age and see how you feel. If you decide to fund from pre-prep years, you will need a plan. e.g. Whether the grandparents are able to contribute, whether you can make investments, and have a fixed income such as monthly rental income (savings in the bank won't help). As you talked about releasing equity if necessary, I trust you know what I am talking about.

Which system you choose, state or private, all depends on your taste. A school suits one doesn't mean it suits all the others. Education is an investment but do not simply measure the return using the earnings of the children can get in the future.

@5329871e

We’re in the same boat as you OP. Salaries really good on the face of it, but private school for 2 would mean a lot has to change. We went to a few school open days in our area, and decided we actually rather like the state school - its ofsted outstanding, the kids were relaxed and funny and really polite, the teachers were motivated. The private schools had an edge in terms of facilities and events, but we figured it would be way more affordable if we just did that stuff as a family (which we’d enjoy anyway). The private schools here are good, but they’re not top 10 in the country and I think that’s what I’d need if I were to make huge sacrifices to send my kids there.

Bottom line is, what leads to happy, confident and well adjusted kids? A secure and loving family - parents who aren’t stressed out by money problems - parents who spend time with them. My kids lives would be improved by me working part time and being super chilled and happy, than if I worked 70 hours a week and was stressed all the time.

100% this. It's exactly what we've decided too.

I’m so surprised at your statement saying

I think I find it galling that private schools themselves seem unable to admit that their education is unaffordable even to those who are very well off, which surely isn't any good for their long term health!

It’s like saying don’t 5 star hotels realise not everyone can stay at them?

There are always going to be people that are better off than you or make as much as you and have just one child. These people will keep private schools going for a very long time.

@Alyosha
On tutoring. Most of the kids I know at privates have had some tutoring along the way. Either to maintain their place at that school, to get them in to a higher set, or like kids in state schools, to maximise their exam potential.
We have pick and mixed tutoring as and when my children need it. They have gone state all the way but we have used the following; a tutor for my dyslexic DD support her through the final stages of primary. She has needed no support at secondary as she gets excellent SEN support and has a very high IQ so is flying high in maths and science.
A latin teacher (from the local private school) for one of my DC when she was showing an interest. I did wonder how he found the time to do any marking for his private school as his evenings seemed to be spent tutoring. She absolutely loved it and it enriched her enjoyment of studying the romans as a history topic at school.
A maths tutor in year 9 for one DC who just needed some hand holding and encouragement. It was 6 months and was brilliant and she is flying at the moment, really enjoying it, but we might do a bit more 1-1 in year 11 depending on how she is feeling.
My children are at home by 4.30 unless they have school clubs, so there is lots of time after school for lovely extra curricular, top class sports clubs and 1-1 tutoring. They aren't wasting an hour on a bus each day as our local school is 10 minutes away, so instead that can be spent doing things suited to who they are and what they are interested in.
So why are you so worried about tutoring if you pick state school? Firstly you are wrong to think that tutoring doesn't exist amongst private school families beyond 11plus or 13plus. It absolutely does. You make it sound like a dirty word or something that would be dreadful. It's an absolutely brilliant way of enhancing your child's potential in a non-exhausting way, often in your own home. And it is MUCH cheaper than private school. And often done by private school teachers in their evenings. You already use a Russian tutor, why would you be so worried about using a tutor at a later date.

OP, many many families with more than one child at private school don’t rely on their salaries to pay the fees. This is where you are going wrong.
You need to look into investing and unfortunately you have to start very early to be able to benefit from compound interest. A lot of families we know pay fees from their ISAs that they’ve built up over years or crypto or additional property. It is v v hard to find through salaries alone unless you are on mega bucks

*fund not find

As they say
Money doesn't buy brain cells

If children are academic they'll be academic wherever

If they aren't and more sporty or artistic whether you spend thousands on a private education or not won't make much difference

I used to work in a private school and parents seemed to think it would be wonderful and bring them on but if they aren't that way inclined and don't apply themselves ......

If you can't afford it don't worry plenty of kids go to state school and do well

@feelsobadfeltsogood Back in my day they used to say 'you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.'
Thing is there is a whole industry built out of convincing parents that schools can do create just such a transformation. They have dynamic marketing departments (often more so than their teaching departments) and they play on parental fear and guilt. Effectively in the case of OP. My parents never complained about anything when I was at private school, but now apparently it is a full time job managing parental 'input'.

[quote naaaahhh]@feelsobadfeltsogood Back in my day they used to say 'you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.'
Thing is there is a whole industry built out of convincing parents that schools can do create just such a transformation. They have dynamic marketing departments (often more so than their teaching departments) and they play on parental fear and guilt. Effectively in the case of OP. My parents never complained about anything when I was at private school, but now apparently it is a full time job managing parental 'input'.[/quote]
“We class schools, you see, into four grades: Leading School, First-rate School, Good School, and School. Frankly," said Mr Levy, "School is pretty bad...”
Evelyn Waugh Decline and Fall

Great point the other tactic to watch out for particularly amongst the 'second division' less academically focused private schools is the replacement of the majority of GCSEs by the creation of a 'protfolio'. Which is aimed to demonstrate the general roundedness of the education of said school and the attributes of the pupil: pony club, cadet force, trip to Malawi to 'build a hospital' etc. These portfolios are of zero value but when presented at the local state Sixth Form for entry onto Advanced level course cause bafflement. The student immediately being advised to spend a year taking GCSEs first.

Of course this suits the private school as the parents are forced to leave their children where they are and pay even more money!

Many private schools are very, very poor!

@1910username Why is it surprising? Private schools rely on a certain amount of political goodwill in order to maintain charitable status. A large number of schools would go out of business if they were to lose charitable status. It should concern those schools if MPs and journalists can no longer afford to send their children there.

@naaaahhh I'm well aware of tutors in private schools. I had a French tutor! Very interesting description of how you used tutors, thanks. As we live in London, I don't think there would be a school bus even if we did go private, they'd be going on public transport. But commuting time is something to consider.

What concerns me is having to tutor everything; if the school has a lot of disruption in classes/isn't teaching effectively it's not just a few tutors - it's a lot of additional time. Topping up a child's interest in Latin/History and boosting their Maths is one thing, spending every evening going over the school curriculum is another. I would consider Home Schooling in those circumstances but that's another very big commitment and you do miss out on a lot by not going to school (in my opinion).

@Redcart21 that's actually very interesting and echoes what @Crispleaves was saying. Need to get our savings performing for us a bit better! Then we have 7 years to save before DS reaches secondary school age; we can reassess then. This has definitely helped me to realise there's no point going after 4+ or 7+.

@feelsobadfeltsogood (intriguing user name!) Yes and no. There are schools where it's not cool to be academic. There are schools where the constant disruption in lessons means it's hard even for academic children to learn. There are schools where the teaching is poor and ineffective, and even the most academic and motivated child finds it hard to learn. And I want my sons to enjoy going to school, I was bullied in primary school and hated it, I was a bit of an oddball. Schools are (were? hopefully it's changed) unkind to those who stood out.

@Alyosha
I am beginning to think you are a troll. Or deluded. Do you really think that a bright child would need a tutor to go through every bit of the curriculum if they were at a state school?
How do you think 93% of the population get beyond school.
You need to go and spend some time in one of your ‘good’ state secondary schools and meet the teachers and go and look what a class looks like even with some low level disruption. Jeez.

We haven’t tutored I find that assumption a bit off too tbh

Ds is doing four A levels inc further maths - sciences etc, hopefully will get targeted grades which would get him into a v good next stage (no counting chickens though)

State comp no tutoring

@Alyosha and why on earth do you think you would be more effective home tutoring a child through GCSE’s and A levels than well trained state school teachers? Why would you be so good at this?
How are you going to work and pay your mortgage then?
I think you are high on post birth hormones TBH.
Or you are a troll. Either way you seem deluded about teachers, state schools and your own abilities.
Would love to hear from your DH.

@naaaahhh Depends on the school. Obviously most good state schools will get good outcomes, especially with bright self motivated kids. However, as we have extensively discussed, there are some state schools with issues with teaching, disruption or both. In any case, I would like my DCs to get the equivalent of A*s/As (7-9 these days I believe), and most children don't get that. Tutors help you get the top grades. Especially if your kids are a bit lazy.

A large number of schools would go out of business if they were to lose charitable status.

Unlikely. The value of charitable status is estimated to be worth c£200 per pupil per term (source The Guardian), and that is less than the variation in fees between schools.

There is no mechanism to relinquish charitable status under current laws surrounding the governance of charities in UK. Until there is an actual proposal which details how it could be achieved, it's a bit pie-in-the-sky. There's a real chance of unintended effects across all charities which list 'education' as one of their aims.

@naaaahhh Well, the outcomes for home educated children are actually pretty good. Why are you assuming I would teach all the subjects??? My point was that I would be able to get tutors to teach the curriculum.

In 8 years' time our mortgage will be smaller and my DH will be earning more, so it would probably be affordable. But it would really be the last resort for us.

Have you heard of home education before? You seem a touch confused by the idea.

Also - not sure if you're aware of this - but you're coming across as a little rude. Just thought you might like to know :)

@scaevola £200 per pupil per term is quite significant! Surely after losing charitable status they then risk being taxed? I have absolutely no idea what the economics of running a private school looks like mind you.

And then what happens at university? I see so much talk about tutors for secondary school on mumsnet and I find it quite shocking to be honest as it’s so far from my own experience. Myself and siblings all did very well and there was no question of a tutor through secondary school, I don’t think the thought ever crossed my parents mind. School teachers were good but not all of them. We were expected to work hard and take responsibility for our studies. We all went onto top universities/v competitive degrees (incl Oxbridge), no tutors there either.

It’s really pointless to have a private vs state debate as OP has firm views on education. You need to focus on how you can achieve your goal of affording private. Either you find better paying jobs, move industries or give it your all at work to get promoted.
You also need to speak to a IFA and see how you can achieve your finance goals for when the kids get to senior school age and then work back. Be strict about it. I have no idea how financially literate you are but I’d start to get clued up on it if you are not. Look at SS ISAs and start with lower risk funds until you get more confidence for medium-high risk or stocks. Think about multiple income streams. There is so much you can do. Educate yourself on day trading to slowly build up a pot. Compound interest will help you grow your money.
I am a fan of private education for many reasons. I also believe state education to work well but that’s not the point. You want private education so you need to focus your efforts on how you are going to attain it.

@Alyosha
I think I am going to hop off the thread if I am coming across as rude. I think I am more incredulous than anything. If you have already decided that your 3 month old and 3 year old should be getting all A*'s and A's then I am worried for them TBH. Do you have any experience of teenagers, or indeed people?
Yes I do know a lot about homeschooling. I became anorexic at my boarding school and had to be homeschooled through my GCSE's. I couldn't get back to school quick enough once I was a sufficient weight. My niece has been homeschooled due to mental health issues and my friend's son has been homeschooled due to having a form of autism that presents with huge anxiety that makes school difficult. What I am querying is why you are so happy to consider this rather than state school with tutoring.
I think best if I go, I am still slightly suspecting that you are having us all on, something not quite right about this thread.

[quote Alyosha]@scaevola £200 per pupil per term is quite significant! Surely after losing charitable status they then risk being taxed? I have absolutely no idea what the economics of running a private school looks like mind you.[/quote]
That figure is the value of the tax break - ie the amount they will then need to pay.

It wont be problematic to pass that on to parents, and it should not threaten the existence of the school.

@Crispleaves Can only speak for myself, but University was fine. I was incredibly lazy in the first year and got a 3rd. Pulled my socks up for year 2 and got a 2.1 and got another 2.1 in my final year. Year 3 was spent in Ukraine. Ultimately I was grateful for the tutoring I got as it really helped my French. I'm not the most academic so I'm not sure I would have done as well in a state secondary school. I have quite esoteric interests that flop around a lot, outside that I'm incredibly lazy - can only work hard when there's a deadline. So I function well at work as there are a lot of them!

@Redcart21 Cheers, that is very good advice, not just for private school but for life! I do indeed have very fixed views, it's one of my biggest flaws.

@naaaahhh Much though it may surprise you to learn this, I am an actual human being, so yes, I do have experience of teenagers and people in general. I was an EFL teacher for a year as well. I'm sorry for your hard experiences during your teenage years. Home Education is a valid choice and I would rather my children were at home, in a safe environment, than in a school with a lot of disruption/violence. I know that is very unlikely to be the situation, but it is possible. It's a contingency.

@scaevola so in that case there's no reason for them to oppose it I suppose? I would think it also opens their business practices up to more scrutiny.

Btw your fixed view is not a negative! It is totally ok to want to choose private education for your children

I would think it also opens their business practices up to more scrutiny

?? Accounts - whether a school is a business or a charity are already published. What additional scrutiny do you think is required, as I suppose you wouid want to see it applied to all businesses and charities

@scaevola It's well known that schools have been investing ever more money in nice facilities. Surely if they're no longer a charity, big bequests and donations will need to be taxed? And capital expenditure will be looked at more closely?