Do private schools give bursaries/scholarships to parents with decent salaries?

[Alyosha]

I feel certain that the answer to this will be "no" but wanted to check.

We have two DS, 3 and 3 months. We both have good jobs, joint salary is over £100k, very comfortable and we have no complaints about our standard of living. We live in London, where private school fees seem to have gone absolutely nuts. I went to SHHS which was £9k pa by time I left in 2007; so very expensive but would be just about affordable for me & DH for 2 DCs. Occasionally they send me a begging letter asking me to donate for their fund to build a world class music centre...can't say I'm too motivated to donate now their fees are pushing £20k pa.

I can't see any way that we could afford school fees for both boys in 2- 3 year's time even with our good incomes. But looking at the support available it's only if you're earning under £80k. But there's no way I would have thought a family jointly earning £80k could afford £20k in school fees for 2 children (£40k net a year!) with mortgage, council tax, utilities, groceries etc.

So our only option would be a scholarship, but most scholarships seem to be 20% max off fees, which doesn't make them affordable, especially not long term. Is there anywhere that has substantial fee remission for a scholarship in commuting distance of North London, either primary or secondary?

This is of course assuming the DCs would even get scholarships, which I realise is a tall order!

@Alyosha the fees are what they are and your current lifestyle for whatever reason doesn't afford you the choices you would like to have

@HarrisMcCoo This is slightly jogging my memory now. I think there was provision for free music lessons when I was at school but I'm pretty sure a) I was the only one whose parents took them up on it (presumably because I was the only one whose parents had time to collect the instrument from the council) and b) the lessons weren't great, so my parents opted out pretty quickly. Then I think we had some kind of group recorder lesson too. One teacher organised a school orchestra at my primary school but when he left the orchestra died, and honestly, there weren't enough kids at a good enough level in the first place.

@EstoPerpetua Obviously like any parent I think my DS is pretty bright (other DS is a lovely blob at the moment), but even I think Eton is probably a little ambitious. And it's boarding which I'm not hugely keen on. Would they care about him having another language fluently, I imagine half their intake probably speak 2+ languages very well.

@Plumjamorcrumblyham All great points, we already only have one car and don't go on holiday much (cost of living difference probably between London & everywhere else!). For me it's about having the choice if we don't like the state provision when the time comes; I have to say I don't see us realistically downsizing unless things have got really bad.

@Kandinskysnail Not much point now. A lot can change in 8 years. My parents moved to be in the catchment of Hornsey School for Girls in 1989. By 2000 the school was barely getting 30% A*-C in GCSEs. But now it's flying again - schools can change really quickly, as can their funding which affects provision of extras.

I'm fairly confident that even in the worst case scenario, my DCs could attend state school and I could top up with tutoring, but that sounds very stressful for all involved and I'd rather he didn't have to spend many evenings a week with a tutor.

@Changechangychange Do they??? This is a big change from when I was at school. You're in Scotland - maybe it's different? I've looked at their website, which sounds great. But they're a charity - who knows what their funding will look like in the future. However DS1 does start school in 2 years' time so excited to see he can learn an instrument for free! Provision is about 100000 times better than when I was at shcool. I remember our music lessons got cut back to once a week and it was always a tape of someone asking us to tap out a rhythm. Or something like that.

@mewkins not at all, I know lots of people who played musical instruments all through state school. However, their lessons were funded by their parents. I actually played in Haringey council's orchestra for many years (Junior Strings at Hornsey School for Girls!), 2nd violins because I was never great, but you had to pay for it, and judging by Waltham forest's website, you still do. Are you saying it's free in other state schools? Confused.

@viques High stakes strategy. At least in London the comprehensives are very good.

@chopc perhaps you're a touch confused? This whole thread is me knowing I can't afford it & asking for strategies on how I could afford it. I have had a lot of useful advice and a plan of action now. Are you fishing for a particular response, perhaps?

Instrumental music tuition fees have been waived by the Scottish Government. We could afford to pay the fees but this is now a bonus that we don't have to fund it. I've two DC who play woodwind instruments. I am always impressed at the annual concert with the quality of music played by all children. Council orchestras must be doing something right 🤷

I am not sure if I am after a particular response @Alyosha . What do you think of my point - your private school education hasn't allowed you to have the choice you want in life. Why are you so adamant your kids should be privately educated?

To answer the question, I don't know whether my DC will be disappointed if they can't send their own children to private schools. I don't even know yet if they're going to have children. As they get older, they will need to decide what their own priorities are (eg how much lifestyle and salary are going to influence their job ambitions). But I'm not going to not send them to what I think is the best school for them now, based on what they may or may not want for their putative future offspring.

FWIW I was state school educated myself. Academically, my education was excellent. But there was very little breadth in the extra curricular provision (not much going on if you weren't in the talented few). It was only later that I realised that sport and music were things that I was interested in - and once you're an adult and working, it's much harder to pursue those things. With my own DC, I wanted to give them the best opportunity I could to get involved in those things earlier. Yes, I could have done that in state or 'state plus' - but I'm even better able to do it in private.

OP I have found (in a corner of the south east outside London with really good state secondaries) that there are loads of people who were privately educated themselves who despite being in good jobs and having good earnings can’t comfortably afford private for their kids and so go state all the way.
It’s different to how it was when you were at school.

I think this is a good thing and round here in terms of behaviour, attainment and leaver destinations to unis the top sets of the state school are akin to a private school.
My dd has friends at her school who to be honest are the kind of kids from the kind of families you might expect to find in a private school (theres a mix of people at her school but that’s just how it’s worked out with the group she’s fallen in with, which is not without its dramas and issues btw)

So don’t discount it.

I personally think it prepares them for the world better and if they can get the same results in a state school that will probably stand them in even better stead for university applications.

With having girls, I was also very conscious of the as high potentially higher rates of issues like self harm and eating disorders in private schools which can be related to academic pressure.

[quote Alyosha]@mewkins you seem very insistent that all state schools have good music provision - I'm not sure why that would have changed so much in the 14 years since I left school given funding has declined so much. Did the govt. put money specifically into this? Anyone know?[/quote]
That certainly hasn't been my experience. I have a very musical DC. We looked at lots of state secondary schools, and in the end DC went to both grammar and private. The local state schools we looked at had very little music provision. Our catchment area school had almost no music provision at all. They had no instrumental groups other than a junk band - in which children created instruments out of tin cans or whatever and then produced "music" with them. I kid you not. The grammar school had a modest orchestra. And they had a small brass band and a small choir. The private school had a decent orchestra, a jazz band, various different types of choirs, a strings group, a woodwind group. They put on loads of concerts and entered children for the local music festival. There was a massive difference between state and private. But that wasn't in London.

Obviously not all state schools have great music provision. But in a northern city my fairly middle of the road comp had an orchestra and a jazz band, we performed at venues in the city and I attended a woodwind orchestra made up of kids from other local state schools. It wasn’t the tin can and using dirt for maracas experience being described above. I can’t speak to what it’s like now but I’m about the same age as the OP by the sound of things.

When we were on your income the thought of sending our 2 children private didn’t even cross our mind. Now we earn a few multiples of that amount so we’ve decided to go for it. I don’t agree with charitable status being used to subsidise well off families and to be honest the top end of the bands already seem quite high.

However if it helps to reassure, it only took a few years for our salaries to hit the bigger numbers. Depending on your sectors you could likely get there in the 7-10 year framework I believe you’re looking at (for 2 children in private school). Or your house will have increased significantly in value and you could sell or remortgage to release equity, which some do. For me it’s not something I would make significant sacrifices in my personal life for because I don’t think it’s worth it. Also I genuinely fear that by sending my kids I will be raising them to feel the way you do - that they have to replicate that experience for their own children and therefore go for the most well paid jobs and suffer through them whether they’re happy/satisfied or not. My DH and I never sought out very highly paid jobs but we went to top universities (both academic) and I guess picked jobs that were or turned out to be quite lucrative after a few false starts/twists and turns. But I always knew I could jack it in and go for something less well paid if I wanted to because I had/have no ambitions for a wealthy lifestyle (my job was well paid from the start although again not big numbers until recently). Unfortunate sending my own DC to private school does throw a spanner in the works in terms of that approach however I plan to have saved the full amount for both DC within a year or two of DC1 starting so I will hopefully then be back in a position where I can take or leave the high paid job!

If you don’t find you have the money spare, honestly do not make yourself a slave to this private school dream…

Forgot to say we will also be mortgage free before DC1 starts. I couldn’t do it without a rock solid plan for how both DC would be able to complete their entire education at the school.

@HarrisMcCoo Now, if only they could get rid of CFE too

@chopc I'd already answered upthread (to be fair I tagged Impasto, not you) - I think it's a non sequitur, basically.

It has allowed me the choices I wanted, I chose my particular profession and career because I enjoy it. Both DH and I could have chosen higher paying career paths but didn't. DH has good scope for pay rises in the coming years, I do but will have to change jobs. Main reasons (as have been repeatedly stated on this thread, mind you) are:

• choice to opt out of state education if I don't like the way it looks in 8 years' time
• more choice/breadth/reliability/engagement with extra curriculars
• unfair advantage for my own kids over others
• more likely to get into good unis with less effort
• more likely to get better jobs, more easily after uni

Last 3 points have been ably rebutted by many, which has been interesting.

@RobinPenguins This is the thing, provision in state schools is happenstance & IMO, not reliable. You might get lucky, you might not. Private schools have resources to hire teachers specifically for orchestras. SHHS had a choir director & conductor even when I was there, before the arms race had really got going

@Crispleaves Interesting you say that re: bands, because if it's unaffordable, it's unaffordable. I can totally see why you feel like that. If we'd stopped at one to prioritise private school I'd be really annoyed to see people like me getting huge fee remissions for prioritising different things.

You have a point on salaries, DH has some scope to up considerably, but I don't really without changing companies. My dream job, which I'm inching towards, would most definitely not involve a pay rise, so that's something else to think about. Might be that I drop to 3-4 days a week if we do go the state route to facilitate clubs etc.

And no fear - DH and I did not choose our careers with private education in mind, hence this whole thread! Both could have chosen differently but are both in jobs we love with great work-life balance.

No way we will be mortgage free but in some ways I think any additional savings are better off paying down the mortgage at low interest rates than losing value in a savings account. Can release equity later as you say.

Not everyone’s preferred choice but financially you’d most likely be much better off investing your savings in a stocks and shares isa than paying the additional amount into your mortgage. You have time for it to grow and ride out any bumps in the market. Obviously making sure you have a good emergency fund first.

@RobinPenguins This is the thing, provision in state schools is happenstance & IMO, not reliable. You might get lucky, you might not. Private schools have resources to hire teachers specifically for orchestras. SHHS had a choir director & conductor even when I was there, before the arms race had really got going

Yes fair enough, I think my point was it’s not unusual. And that was outside of London, the additional opportunities in London state schools are many. It’s ok to want to choose private school - but if that ends up not being possible because your current circumstances (which clearly don’t allow it - we have 1 child and a higher joint income and don’t live in London and still wouldn’t do it) persist, then it doesn’t have to be the end of the world.

@Alyosha I'm afraid your suspicion is correct - bilingual is just what a lot of the pupils are. Generally, the financial rewards for being bright are more or less non-existent at day schools (academic scholarships are quite easy to get, but they tend to come with a tiny percentage off the fees, if at all). They're a bit better at the big-name boarding schools, but the competition is ferocious as there are many, many very clever children out there. What you really need is for a child to excel in something that is a bit more niche, and that will really give something to the school in return for their investment.

@Alyosha thank you for your honest reply

You are absolutely correct that when one chooses one's career, not many think about what lifestyle it will afford. For example a friend was saying why would people become doctors and then moan about their salaries (a GP/consultant would probably earn about £140K full time if lucky) - yes higher than most but not compared to say people in banking/ city law

Wish you all the best in your journey. Appreciate you are luckier than most that with a few sacrifices, you may be in the position to send your kids to a private school. When it comes to private schools, unless you are sending to a good reputable private school, there wouldn't be much difference between that and a non fee paying school. You do have good options of several schools in North London but then you will realise with time the woes of the 7plud, 11plus and 13plus/ common entrance - they may be scrapping this

@Alyosha

He'll be fluent in Russian, isn't that enough

I would hold the fort on that one. My DD was fluent in my mother tongue at that age and now barely speaks a word and gets cross at me when I speak it to her sorry - off topic!

I've noticed several people saying send to a state school and spend the money on tutoring. Why do people think that tutoring will be necessary?

My son went to a comprehensive and all his friends achieved great GCSEs and A levels and went to high-ranking universities - they didn't need tutoring, because they were bright kids capable of doing well at school.

I don't know why everyone is say that £100k is loads. Our income is nearly double that, with 2 kids at private school we really feel the pinch. We are not in London either.

@DietrichandDiMaggio

I've noticed several people saying send to a state school and spend the money on tutoring. Why do people think that tutoring will be necessary?

My son went to a comprehensive and all his friends achieved great GCSEs and A levels and went to high-ranking universities - they didn't need tutoring, because they were bright kids capable of doing well at school.

The problem is that if the child is not in the top 2 sets there is likely to be disruption in the classroom at a 'bog' standard comprehensive. In this case tutoring maybe required or if class sizes are too big.

@imamearcat you can't be that unaware of how most people live surely? My husband and I earn more than the National average each and still earn a lot less than £100k.

My heart bleeds about you're almost £200k family income being a pinch.

I'm just saying that I don't think that £100k between them would necessarily make paying 40k a year in school fees that affordable.

Say their take home is 6/7k a month, 3.3k of that would be on school fees! I wouldn't say that's easily affordable.

The problem is that if the child is not in the top 2 sets there is likely to be disruption in the classroom at a 'bog' standard comprehensive. In this case tutoring maybe required or if class sizes are too big.

Well, if the OP is hoping for scholarships, presumably she's expecting her children would be top set material. Also I think it sounds like she lives close to outstanding, rather than bog-standard, schools.

I haven’t read the full thread but two things.

Firstly the joint £100k is gross and will be far less after tax and NI. How much less depends specifically on how the income is split. For instance one salary of £100k pays more tax and NI than two lots of £50k

Secondly scholarships are meant to be based on merit so won’t necessarily be means tested but some schools might do so. Bursaries tend to be means tested and not based on merit.

Scholarships are far less generous typically than they used to be. I was a full fees scholar at one school and about 3/4 fees at another which is probably now very rare.

Be aware of ongoing expectations for scholars. At some schools it’s a lot of added pressure for children to maintain standards and be in the spotlight. Scholars are effectively marketing tools for schools so there are two sides to the coin.

@Crispleaves I must get a stocks & shares ISA set up for my personal savings - have to say I'm very cautious and would rather think about attaining mortgage free status even though I know logically that's a daft use of capital. Russian isn't even my native language, so goodness knows how that will go. Current plan is that he will get picked up by a russian speaking childminder after primary school every day.

@RobinPenguins At the moment it's definitely not the end of the world. The big question mark is what happens in 8 years' time for me.

@EstoPerpetua Yes thought so, pity though!

@chopc I am very aware of the woes of the 11+ I went through it from the other side! I remember one night after tutoring sobbing to my mum that it was all too much. She was mildly sympathetic, but pushed me onwards. My parents had it much worse at the stakes were so much higher; the state provision locally really wasn't great back then. They had a boarding school in Dorset as a backup if I failed to get in anywhere!

@DietrichandDiMaggio I had tutoring and I went to a private school - most kids will have a subject that isn't their forte or that they find difficult to get on with. Even in private schools they don't always have the time to give everyone one-on-one attention, especially if your recalcitrant teenager refuses to ask for help. Kids are far too small yet to know how intelligent they will be.

@imamearcat Presumably you have a very big mortgage? Or are the kids at boarding school?