Non grammar school areas - do you regret not having had a child have a chance of grammar school?

[mids2019]

I live in an area with no local grammar school but am aware of other parents that have made decisions to move into grammar school areas with their children gaining successful entry.

Does any one else sometimes feel they would have liked their child the opportunity to take the 11+?

I sometimes feel my children are vaguely aware of grammar/private schools where the 'bright kids go' and dont want them to feel educationally less esteemed.

I am very pleased that for dds secondary education we lived in a fully comprehensive area. To be honest the standard of education she received at her inner-city outstanding comprehensive was much better than at the all-girls grammar school that I attended. Pastoral care, number of GCSE options, extra curricular activities were all good and she had the chance to mix with pupils of all abilities. Behaviour was also good and any issues were dealt with speedily. I really don't recognise the stereotype of pupils not wanting to work hard at comps, when that wasn't true at dds school!
It is possible for comps to manage learning in a way where the academic pupils are challenged and the needs of other pupils are also met too.

Our local comprehensive school is partially selective, taking students from out of area under academic and music criteria. Parents tutor similarly for their entrance exams. It's not as simple as grammars (selective/tutored/bad) v comprehensives (non selective/good).

I appreciate that things have moved on since I went to my grammar. But there was no extra tutoring; as our primary was on a county border, some kids left at 11 to go to the comprehensive in one county, others stayed on to take (as was then) the 12 plus for the grammar schools. Our state primary prepared us for the grammar exams (everyone bar 2 pupils in my year passed) and tutoring really wasn't a thing.

As I still live locally, I see preparation for the 11 plus and it's not all intensive tutoring/rich parents throwing all their resources at it. There is still diversity in the social-economic backgrounds of the pupils and it's no different in this respect from the local comprehensive. My grammar school achieves excellent grades, but is outclassed in sport and music compared to other schools. It depends on what type of education you think would most benefit your child.

Our local comprehensive school is partially selective, taking students from out of area under academic and music criteria. Parents tutor similarly for their entrance exams.

This is why I think 'aptitude' tests should also be banned. There is no need for it, it is just a way of selecting the 'right' kids/parents by another means. There was another poster who used to say that selecting by parents ability to juggle would still not be right, as the committed organised parents would achieve the goal, whereas the less organised, time starved parents would not. So the children who got in would still have better support in the background, just like the tutored grammar kids, or the ones putting in for aptitude tests.

Is there a 'prestige' associated with grammars though in much the way certain universities or arts institutions are regarded?

I am not going into the rights or wrongs of this but often grammars have a list of esteemed alumni (eg a nearby town grammar was attended by Shakespeare ( no record on his english lit result though)) and generally give an impression of 'pedigree'.

Is this an attractive factor and maybe one that limits opposition to their removal?

where is this prestige coming from?

I don’t understand why you think it is something to be proud of. Most people if you live outside the very few areas that have continued with grammar schools couldn’t give a toss where someone whether someone went to a grammar school or not as even in areas that don’t have the 11+ there are schools that have always been called grammar schools because that is what they were years ago.
The only prestige is living in the catchment area of one.

Ds was offered a local grammar school because of where we live. He could at the time barely read or write.

If you are thinking that employers in the future are going to look and go wow you went to the grammar school then you are going to be severely disappointed

@mids2019 I don't live in a grammar area but in a county where there a few genuine grammar schools. Ie you have to take a test which they call 11+ to get in. The tests are set by the schools.

Rightly or wrongly there is definitely an element of prestige associated with these schools locally.

There is an esteemed alumni both historical and more recent. The names are recorded on a plaque in the library.

Personally I think it is good to have the option locally as a lot of the other good schools are faith based. There is not enough capacity in the grammar schools for this to affect the ability of other schools to attract a wide range of students.

You have to remember that the 11+ isn't really a test of intelligence, it's a very particular type of test taken on one specific day which suits a certain way of thinking and benefits hugely from tutoring in that style of exam.

It's a terrible system imo because academic achievement isn't linear – some children peak at a young age and never go much further, others don't come into their own until A level or university.

DC1 went to GS, and was told on the first day that the 11+ result had absolutely zero bearing on a child's GCSE results, or beyond. The GS took no notice of it whatsoever. DC2 went to a secondary modern which had been in special measures a couple of years earlier and which most parents avoided like the plague. DC2 is now doing a Masters in a highly academic STEM subject at a top university because they were focused and worked hard.

Over all I loathe the huge massive 70s structures trying to pack tons of dc in to all be the same.

We need to make smaller schools and more of them with different specialist leaning, not wildly but we need to offer more not less.
I'm very worried about where dd 2 will go, she's massively behind at school, I doubt I'll get her into grammar and unfortunately the very good comp is atrocious with sen.
Ideally it would be private school, small classes... No lefty politics stumping us..

@Lemonmelonsun

Over all I loathe the huge massive 70s structures trying to pack tons of dc in to all be the same.

We need to make smaller schools and more of them with different specialist leaning, not wildly but we need to offer more not less.
I'm very worried about where dd 2 will go, she's massively behind at school, I doubt I'll get her into grammar and unfortunately the very good comp is atrocious with sen.
Ideally it would be private school, small classes... No lefty politics stumping us..

When would you recommend specialising? I'm not sure my DC (one wordy, one mathsy) would have wanted to specialise at 11. It's just too soon

But the problem with small schools @Lemonmelonsun is that they can't offer a wide variety of subjects taught by specialists as there simply aren't enough teachers. The "huge massive 70s structures" in my family's experience offer a wonderful variety of subjects which actually encourages individuality as children can choose subjects they shine in.

Not in my families experience History, smaller classes not larger are generally the way to go.

@Lemonmelonsun but you were talking about smaller schools in your post not smaller classes. Two very different things...

I'm very worried about where dd 2 will go, she's massively behind at school, I doubt I'll get her into grammar and unfortunately the very good comp is atrocious with sen

If you are in a grammar area then you don’t have a comp you have the secondary modern.

Comprehensives are only in areas where there is no 11+
You can still go to a school that has grammar In the name. You just have to be in the catchment area for it.

I'm not sure any school deserves the adjectives 'very good' if it is 'atrocious with SEN'.
It seems to me that some schools are happy to gain a reputation locally as being atrocious with SEN, as it encourages parents of children with SEN to self select away from it, overloading other more local schools.

Agree Teen. It seems that some schools get a "very good" reputation because they are a good fit for a certain type of child (probably the well behaved, studious type with supportive family background) but are absolutely useless with "square peg" children that don't fit into their "round hole" set up, if you'll pardon the appalling metaphor.
A bit like super selective schools getting loads of 9s at GCSE not being an indication that the school is amazing.

When I was looking for DD1, so around 12 years ago, one of our local schools (comps) talked about its 'grammar school curriculum' . It's curriculum was pretty much exactly the same as the other local school except it didn't let you do 2 MFLs for GCSE (so actually if anything it was worse ). The HT also talked in her speech a lot about high achievers, but nothing at all about how they helped lower ability kids. I'm sure it was a way of encouraging parents to not select their school...

@Bythemillpond there are some counties which are not full grammar school areas which do still have the odd grammar school where 11+ is needed to get in. The other schools in these counties are true comps and not secondary moderns.

[quote Mumski45]@Bythemillpond there are some counties which are not full grammar school areas which do still have the odd grammar school where 11+ is needed to get in. The other schools in these counties are true comps and not secondary moderns.[/quote]
If these don't have a catchment area and just go on highest performing, they are normally referred to as Super Selectives for clarity.
If they do have a catchment area and just say a passing score then distance, this would impact the nearest non-elective schools.

We are near a grammar area. Those that can pay for years of tutoring. I loathe the system for that. Selection by money into free education.
So no. I'm happy I'm not in that area

@mids2019

Judging from some comments above are grammars the new independents? Anecdotally instead of allowing social mobility by taking bright kids from deprived areas many of the pupils seem to be relatively privileged . Maybe this feeds into a mindset of grammar equals 'success'

(I know this maybe misguided)

Totally and utterly selection by ability to pay a tutor. Sadly all the tutored kids I know also gave up sports / scouts / music etc for study in Yr5 That's not a rounded education. Every child I know in free grammars was tutored for at least a year at £25 ish a session

I thought about potential grammars once I realised some kids do go to them where we are (out of catchment so need exceptional scores to get in, then long travel time and most friends will be a long way away).

Ds was bright but autistic and crumbled under pressure, so by end Y4 I realised he'd never get in. Local young adults said the local large comps often functioned like a grammar and a PRU within the school, depending on what sets you were in.

He's just finishing y7 at a comp where they haven't been able to set for maths and English as usual as the bubbles have to stay separate, and it's working out - the fact that he's clearly good at learning is boosting his confidence, and a couple bright kids are encouraging him to try harder in lessons he'd prefer not to try in.

No, I don't agree that state school should be selective.
I think that all state schools should be able to offer a differentiated curriculum, and more resources should be put into that rather than having two tier education options based in academic ability.

There are selective schools in the private sector - those wanting selection can pay for it if it's important to them. I don't have an issue with paying for education (we did) but believe free (or rather state) education should be for all, and shouldn't select.

What about those who get a grammar school place who have not been tutored? I know a few who definitely did not have private tutoring. Their first school and their parents were very good though, encouraged exploration, research and learning as well as having fun.

You can get a grammar school place if you live in the catchment area (no 11+ in this area)

@Bythemillpond

You can get a grammar school place if you live in the catchment area (no 11+ in this area)

Isn't that then a grammar in name but not reality? ie a Comprehensive.