Non grammar school areas - do you regret not having had a child have a chance of grammar school?

[mids2019]

I live in an area with no local grammar school but am aware of other parents that have made decisions to move into grammar school areas with their children gaining successful entry.

Does any one else sometimes feel they would have liked their child the opportunity to take the 11+?

I sometimes feel my children are vaguely aware of grammar/private schools where the 'bright kids go' and dont want them to feel educationally less esteemed.

As someone who was absolutely devestated for not getting into a selective grammar school at 11. I am not a fan of the system. Especially since it was expected as I was considered one of the brightest in my class. I really felt like I'd let everyone down, especially myself. I went on to get a good degree from a Russell group university.

My best friend also 'failed' hers in a different part of the country. Has a phd and is high up in a medical area in the nhs.

We both feel this was a massive knock to our confidence that had long lasting consequences. Neither of our parents made a particular issue of it but we were still very aware.

I am glad we do not have this system where we are although my son would probably have a very good chance of being selected. Not having this system means that the brightest children will attend the local comprehensive and that they haven't already been selected for another school which I think is a good thing.

A lot of emotive views here.

I wonder what would constitute a good comp?

Is it OFSTED rating, exam results and/or other factors?
.
I think to fully be on board with my local comp I think it seems to be a case there arent any limitations in curriculum.

As said before I have work colleagues whi have moved wrd to take advantage of the grammar and they certainly not foolish and this preys on my mind

I wonder what would constitute a good comp?
Is it OFSTED rating, exam results and/or other factors?

My DD's comp is good. (In an area of Hants that has a large collection of good comps).
According to Ofsted it is 'good with outstanding features'.
It has a positive progress 8 value, for all 3 bands of prior attainers.
It has a wide curriculum, including a construction course and a beauty course at the lower end and triple science , ability to do 2 MFL at the higher end. You aren't limited by incoming SATs and can move up sets as needed.
Behaviour is generally good, pastoral care is good.
From the outside they also coped with Covid well.

Obviously smaller class sizes would be nicer, as would not having any disruption ever in lessons, and not having any 'mean kids'. But mean kids are everywhere, kids of all academic levels can be disruptive, and smaller class sizes you have to pay for.

I wonder what would constitute a good comp?

I would say a good school (not specifically just a comp) is one that enables each child to reach their potential. I don't mean in just an academic sense but by providing opportunities for them to develop a range of skills. so for the future brain surgeon that might be a good quality broad education that enables them to leave with a clutch of high grades, whilst for a child that is less academic it might be helping them identify their interests and strengths and nurturing those.

That is practically impossible to measure in any meaningful way, though.

How many gcses/option subjects are normal these days? I did 11 at my GS. The local comp does 9... English, Lit, Maths, triple science and three options (including btecs).

Generally there has been a slight drop in numbers of GCSEs taken since the new harder terminal 9-1 GCSEs were introduced. So you can't compare what you did 10 or 20 or 30 years ago with numbers today.

At our comp the standard is 9.5.
Triple scientists (around 1/3rd of year) do 10.5.
At the lower end there is a construction course that takes 2 option blocks.
Pupils with SEN can drop subjects if needed.

Bloody glad, I think it's a dreadful system.

@zyd32

It's very hard, if not impossible, to provide any meaningful statistical analysis comparing the two. Anecdotal "my child achieved all 9s, went to Cambridge and won a Nobel prize in x" at either type of school is not really relevant. That's before the natural/inherent bias of the type of school that you/your kids attended.

I can't say that I wouldn't have achieved my grades from my grammar school at our local comprehensive instead. It's quite possible. I loved my school but I also appreciate that it can have a very negative impact on those who don't pass the 11 plus. But I don't think anyone can say with complete certainty that the grammar school cohort would have achieved the same grades at a comprehensive; there's far too many unknowns and variables.

Not that hard.

Studies which compare the overall results of Kent (fully segregated) with the overall results of counties with similar demographics show that there is no overall benefit to a grammar system. There is a history of studies going back a while.

Also see this more recent study (which doesn't compare whole counties) www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01425692.2018.1443432

Absolutely not. I grew up in Buckinghamshire and there is no way I would want any of my dc in that school system. Thankfully we now live in an area that is all comprehensive schools.

DS is at the local grammar. If we were 10 miles away I'd have sent him on the bus, I wouldn't with a long commute though. No grammar and I'd only be disappointed if he had to go to a school with poor results or reputation. You can have the same divide as with grammar and comp, but with schools in advantaged and disadvantaged areas instead. The grammar is his chance to go to an outstanding school even though he is from a working class lone parent family. This doesn't mean I agree with the system, but I do want, and will do the best for my child in the circumstances we are in.

@TeenMinusTests
No worries. The only secondary in catchment for us is not known for its academic prowess. I live in an area without grammar schools (and not inclined to give the kids a 90 minute commute).
I'm frustrated that I got an excellent education but without the funds for private school, I can't offer my kids the same.

If triple award science is not on offer, the child can’t do it. If you have to choose between one MFL or one humanity and aren’t allowed to do both, your A level and degree options are limited. If nobody is put in for the higher-tier GCSE papers because there is nobody to teach it, you can’t get higher than whatever a B is these days. If nobody is allowed to do more than 8 GCSEs, it is hard to compete with pupils at schools who do 10-11 as the norm
Maybe, but you can check whether any of those apply beforehand. None of them apply at my dcs' comp, nor two other local comps I can think of. But then we don't have any grammars in our county. Maybe it would be different if we did.

We didn't have the option and I'm glad - I think that I'm grammar school areas the top 20-% get creamed off so the state comps go downhill. We're lucky in our town that there are 2 good state secondaries to choose from. Ds1 is in y10 and projected grades 7-9 in most subjects. He's also capable of mixing with a wide range of people from different backgrounds and has quite a grounded perspective on life that I'm not sure selective schools provide in the same way.
But, it's all down to personal choice - for some children a grammar is the right option and I would never criticise someone else's decision.

@BerriesAndLeaves

If triple award science is not on offer, the child can’t do it. If you have to choose between one MFL or one humanity and aren’t allowed to do both, your A level and degree options are limited. If nobody is put in for the higher-tier GCSE papers because there is nobody to teach it, you can’t get higher than whatever a B is these days. If nobody is allowed to do more than 8 GCSEs, it is hard to compete with pupils at schools who do 10-11 as the norm Maybe, but you can check whether any of those apply beforehand. None of them apply at my dcs' comp, nor two other local comps I can think of. But then we don't have any grammars in our county. Maybe it would be different if we did.

And if you have a full grammar system, then the schools that are left over aren't proper comps.

None of them apply at any of the comps round me either.

I don't think it matters really, and the choices should be considered with the child in mind. My daughter went to a Grammar school and did extremely well staying for sixth form and headed on to University in London. However it had its downsides, being an all girls school, long distance travel for many years, massive homework, and very strict. With lots of extra curricular activities you "had" to do. She has a good career but not happy school memories.
My son, however had the same opportunity as his sister seven years later, but because of the above reasons chose to go to a local Secondary School, he had a balanced school life, did his chosen extra curricular activities which he enjoyed, had a more balanced homework schedule and left school with all high passes, went onto college and then to University, he now has a career in engineering.
So I would say that with family support your child will do well wherever they go.

I ended up not working for a while from before lockdown, partly health and other reasons so I did try volunteer locally and get more involved in the community. I was always very keen on our child just going to the local secondary.

Well our child will be starting at a grammar school and we are out of area.

It was during lockdown that my son decided to go for 11 plus.

For me the secondary schools are not great where we live.

Also, primary schools are not always good either where we are.

Not from any fault of the teachers they really try but some of the underlying issues seem really hard to change.

The behaviour in my son's primary school is at times really sad and depressing.

I have really tried to engage with some of the families, because I hate how unfair the education system is and it still does depress me.

I pass on books and resources to other parents and families and we try help as much as possible.

Lock down was a real eye opener as my son was able to do lots of work and not get disturbed at school, he himself realised that he was not covering all that would be needed for 11 plus or private schools.

He decided to try for grammar and private schools after searching on line and he had another friend at another school doing this so he got interested that way, and ended up being pretty motivated. He got private school scholarship offers but in reality we could not have afforded private.

Here are some of the things that have happened at primary:

Swearing and threats by parents to teachers and other pupils
Police involvement due to violence from parents.
Fantasy adoration of gangs - pressure on kids to glorify drug taking and county lines during primary school key stage 2.
Truanting
Stealing - had a play date the year 5 kid stole cash from our house - his mum came back with the cash. I had been trying to help him as his Dad is not a nice guy.
Trips being ruined because they could not trust some children to behave or they would set out on a trip and then have to return because of some behaviour issue.
Violence in terms of smashed doors and smashed lights in classroom.
Intimidation of corner shop staff.

So this group of children which includes some children with serious issues will go to the local comp.

They are following in the footsteps of some older children at the comp.

When there was an online meeting during lockdown it was ruined by racist language so they decided they could not risk further live meetings, this is primary.

When my child got verbal abuse about his heritage he was not even surprised. It was just accepted.

Now this is a comp that is very trendy and the head is very anti-grammar schools and talks a good talk, but the results are not that great.
Because I have been local I see the really appalling behaviour of some of these students too after school. I know an escalated version of what happens at primary happens at this comp.

We can't believe so far what the Grammar school can offer, and how there are so many options and good communication already from the school. We did check out the school and tried to be really thorough.
My son is very happy as he is hoping that he will be able to learn more at school.

Like I say lockdown opened up him to the possibilities of different schools and we are very happy to be able to have a choice.

All that said - I found 11 plus nerve wracking - our son had to cover lots of lost ground. I would seriously consider the stress on the child, as I think if my son had not passed it would have really dented him. He got very sad that not all children get to have a shot at good schools.
I also think because he wanted to do it it made it easier. I would not force a child just to do this work. In our experience the work was very different to what was covered at school.

Now this is just our perspective from our little community. But the serious issues at primary have really made my son value his education.

He does not want to end up truanting etc.

We moved to the area we did for many reasons, one of which was because there are no grammar schools. There are also no private schools either and, as a result, the local comprehensive is utterly brilliant. So no, I wouldn't want to put that amount pressure on my children at such a young age. And thankfully, I don't have to for them to get an excellent education.

I would add that I think our area isn't brilliantly served.

I don't think I realised until I stopped working and had a clearer view on the issues.

If the area was like WildGarlicTime we would not have done 11plus.

nope. Never occured to me to look at grammar schools. The 2 top grammar schools in the country are near me. People on here and on the 11+ forum sell their entire beings to get their kids in there and put them on ridiculous journeys across london to have the place. I can't think of anything worse than sending my child there, genuinely. I don't know anyone who has even considered these schools. Granted our comprehensives are good as it's not a grammar area but most people who want a rounded education go for the comprehensives or private and their kids all end up with more or less the same results and the same universities

@Travielkapelka

nope. Never occured to me to look at grammar schools. The 2 top grammar schools in the country are near me. People on here and on the 11+ forum sell their entire beings to get their kids in there and put them on ridiculous journeys across london to have the place. I can't think of anything worse than sending my child there, genuinely. I don't know anyone who has even considered these schools. Granted our comprehensives are good as it's not a grammar area but most people who want a rounded education go for the comprehensives or private and their kids all end up with more or less the same results and the same universities

This is the problem isn't it? Comprehensives in non grammar areas hold their ground and produce good results (along with bad - but there are other issues at play here). It's having grammars in an area which results in comps suffering. Why oh why can't we fix this?

Why oh why can't we fix this?
Because there isn't the political will? Messing with schools is likely to be a vote loser whoever does it. The articulate mobilised invested middle classes in those areas will cause more grief about change than those in favour of it.

A very very few people where I live send their DC on the train to a nearby county for the grammars. I can't see the point myself unless they particularly want single sex education.

@TeenMinusTests absolutely. While the children of politicians are educated privately or at grammars (or while they perceive their electorate to be like them) they will do nothing. And yet the vast, vast bulk of us are in the non selective state system.

tbh I would also get rid of convoluted admissions criteria such as Greycoat Hospital School and so-called 'aptitude' places for music, MFL or whatever which again seem to be a way to subvert the system.

(Religious places are a bit more problematic due to how the schools are funded.)

I know it wouldn't be fair on the child, but if all politicians had to put their child into the least well performing schools in their constituency, I bet there would be more pressure to sort them out.
(Might lead to people not becoming MPs until they had adult children though.)

A comp in a grammer area is not a comp. It's a secondary modern, it doesn't have the top 20%. They are not truly comprehensive, no matter what you kid yourself.

If you are happy with the system you also have to accept that your child might end up at the dreaded secondary modern.

I moved specifically to a non grammar area because I don't believe education should be selective.