Would you bother putting an average child in for the 11+

[Coppercreek]

Evening all, some friends chat about school allocations has turned me to thinking about secondary school for DD who is in year 4.

Our catchment high school is pretty dire. I had never thought much about the 11+ but am now wondering if it is worth putting DD in for it in the hope of getting a place at one fo the 2 lovely grammars nearby.

She is above average in maths but struggles with word questions and she is dyslexic so struggles with English however she has excellent understanding once a question is read to her (which is what happens at school). She is mildly dyslexic and although not at free reading level she is nearly there.

Am I going to cause her unnecessary stress and disappointment by aiming her at something she won't be able to do?

She gets pupil premium so she can score 10 points below the qualifying score and get a place. And we are in the priority catchment area.

I worry about her at either of our 2 catchment comps. Both have huge behaviour issues and lower than average GCSE and A level scores.

She had a tutor at the moment to help with her literacy skills as with us both working full time we don't have the time to help her with her homeschooling as much as we would like and if we were going to put her in for it we would continue with the tutoring.

Speaking to friends who have got their kids into the grammar we do need to start thinking about it by September as most of the kids seem to have some sort of prep for it.

Some of this depends where you are.

So London, very high demand something like 150 kids per place.
Glos - super selective, so they only take top 5%, but not everyone takes the exam, so about 3-4 kids per place.
Kent and Bucks, complete grammar system, so 30% of kids pass and get places.

But the general rule of thumb is that they need to be in the top group in class to pass. This is obviously a bit hard to judge, in some primaries about half the class will get in, so the 'top group' is a bit hard to judge.

If you are going for it, then you need to prep through year 5.
I would say though, she needs to be at the level where she can read something like Harry Potter for fun in year 5 to be the right level. If she is not able to do that, it is likely that she simply won't be able to keep up in the grammar school.

There is some help for dyslexia in the test - more time for example, so that in itself wouldn't necessarily hold her back.

You might want also to think about how she'd get on in a school if she'd scraped her way in (possibly boosted by being on pupil premium) and finds herself at the bottom of the heap academically. A confident child who works harder when set high targets might do well. A less confident one who struggles in certain subjects more than others might not flourish.

I believe 2500 ish kids sat it last year and there are around 600 places. So about 4 kids applying for each place.

She does perform better when stretched to try harder. If I'm honest she doesn't read for pleasure despite her finding it a lot easier than she did, perhaps a throwback from her earlier years when she was undiagnosed and left to struggle.

She is maths whizz and when a written problem is read out to her can answer it instantly.

It is definitely something to consider that she would flounder if bottom of the cohort, I know research suggests that middling kids benefit most from what grammar offers. Definitely something to think over.

I had never even considered it an option until a friend who's daughter got her acceptance today asked if I was putting DD in for it.

This is the problem with grammars, so many parents prep their DC for months and more often years. I couldn’t believe it when I was told but the more I spoke to people the more I realised it was absolutely true.

An average ability child that has been tutored for a year or so might well pass, but I think it would be difficult for an average child to pass without any tutoring.

I can say from experience that I know of one parent that put her child in for the grammar test and she had been private tutored for a couple of years, but she didn’t pass. The DC was distraught and I felt really sorry for her.

I do know that the child was probably not even quite average so despite that tutoring it was unlikely she would pass and of course she didn’t.

I suppose in a class of 30, the top 10 would have a good chance of passing and that’s how I would judge. Most parents know where their DC are academically and relation to the average, IE if they’re working at greater depth etc and if they are then they’ll likely pass the test.

My DC passed the entrance test but in the end it was too far away really so we chose a different school. DC had no tutoring (I didn’t realise it was a ‘thing’) but they did shy in the top 7/8 within their class of 30 and were working in greater depth in English and mostly maths. The other children that took the test in DC class also sat in top 7/8 and they all passed too. That’s how I know the other DC didn’t pass but I equally know she didn’t sit on that too 7/8....

What I’m saying is, the reality is that not every child will pass the 11+. Your DC sounds like she would so I’d put her in for it!

How good are the lovely grammars at supporting kids with SEN?
Her dyslexia may be mild, but education gets more and more challenging as they move up the school.

Presumably it's not 2500 random kids applying though - it's 2500 kids whose parents all believe them to be bright enough to stand a decent chance? So probably nearly all above average. Of which less than a quarter actually get in. That sounds tough odds for all but the very brightest (and hardworking/well-tutored) kids

I failed (just) but I still enjoyed the process. What have you got to lose?

Talk to her about it just being an option to try out for and if she doesn't get a place she has lost nothing and it probably wouldn't have suited her. Do some tutoring but don't go mad with it as you dont want her to get in and require extra tutoring for the subsequent years. It would be worth asking the schools about how a pupil with dyslexia will be supported. Also ask her if she wants to try for the grammar as she needs to be on board.

She is maths whizz and when a written problem is read out to her can answer it instantly.

She sounds like a smart cookie. You need to tutor her for verbal, non-verbal reasoning. She stands a good chance. I'd say go for it. If she does not get in, it might spur her to work harder generally. All in all, a good experience and lesson at life.

I put my dcs up for stuff they did not get. But they got interview experience, prep experience out of it. Both did not get into the grammar of their choice but are now on scholarships. They are not particularly sensitive kids - more the sort of kids who could do with a little nudge to work harder.

Just my opinion but I think if your child can’t pass the test without tutoring then a grammar school probably isn’t right for them. Lots don’t agree with me though and practically everyone tutors! I think there are different tests too, some claim to rely less on prior learning, more of an IQ test. If the alternative schools are terrible maybe think about it. Are you sure the dyslexia is mild if she needs questions to be read out to her? Unfortunately some of the spelling/ English questions on the papers are really hard for dyslexics. Which is a shame as they don’t really reflect intelligence and ability in the subject. It does depend on what testing method they use though. Personally if you have money for tutoring I’d spend it on a specialist tutor. That will benefit the test and the rest of her education.

Forget performance. How crushing to be bottom of the year group. Better for self esteem to be higher

@Porridgeoat

Forget performance. How crushing to be bottom of the year group. Better for self esteem to be higher

Even more so for a dyslexic as they usually have to work twice as hard as others as the education system doesn’t teach how they learn and their difficulties affect every single subject. Very often leads to poor self esteem, I know many dyslexic adults who still label themselves as ‘stupid’ when they are far from it and are actually very successful! Dyslexic kids are often bright but it’s really difficult for them to show it in school.

There is a big difference between exam prep in year 5 and intensive tutoring.
Because of the competition, most children will not pass without some exam prep. They need to be familiar with the question types, and they need to revise and be up to date with the things thye have leant at school.
Just to give and example or two.
At school they have learnt and understand nouns, verbs, pronouns etc. But many children need to revise them so that in the exam they can quickly remember what is what and identify which part of speech somethign is.
Similarly, they have done and understood long multiplication, but if they did it 6 months ago, can they do it quickly without having to stop and think in the exam?

Also, the 11+ covers everything in the primary curriculum, some of which is taught in year 6, so in exam prep you need to teach those things too.

Of course it is possible for a clever child to pass without any exam prep, but as everyone else is getting it, it puts them at a disadvantage.

But exam prep does not need to be from a tutor, it is pretty easy to do it yoursefl if you are committed.

Every are has slightly different tests, but the CEM and GL tests are actually also a great way to revise and consolidate what they should know form primary school, so if they work towards the test and don't get in, they have consolidated what they shoudl know before heading off to secondary, so not a negative at all.

Sorry about all the typos.
Also meant to say, some things, like Non Verbal Reasoning, really need some familiarity and practice.

BUT having said all that.

Is she performing at greater depth in maths and English? If she isn't I am not sure that grammar will be the best place for her, or that she would be able to pass the test. You say that she understands the question when read out loud, but unless she has an ECHP which allows her to have things read out, then she has to be able to understand it when reads it.

In some areas you pass as an average of all the papers, so you can be good in one subject and weaker in another. In some areas you must pass every section. In our area that varies from school to school.

My above average, top of class DD at primary is bottom set at her grammar. She sometimes finds this quite disheartening. I sometimes wonder if she would have been better at the comp.

@BungleandGeorge

Just my opinion but I think if your child can’t pass the test without tutoring then a grammar school probably isn’t right for them. Lots don’t agree with me though and practically everyone tutors! I think there are different tests too, some claim to rely less on prior learning, more of an IQ test. If the alternative schools are terrible maybe think about it. Are you sure the dyslexia is mild if she needs questions to be read out to her? Unfortunately some of the spelling/ English questions on the papers are really hard for dyslexics. Which is a shame as they don’t really reflect intelligence and ability in the subject. It does depend on what testing method they use though. Personally if you have money for tutoring I’d spend it on a specialist tutor. That will benefit the test and the rest of her education.

I completely agree with this!!! When my DC sat the text, I decided not to use a tutor as imo, if they need a tutor to pass the test, I wound question it is the school for them.

There was one girl in my DC class, that was tutored to within an inch of her life for about 3 years, with the sole aim of getting a place at the grammar.

She got a place, but I would worry that if they take the tuition away, she’ll struggle. From what I’ve heard, it’s pretty obvious to the teachers which children have been tutored to get in and then the tutoring has ceased. They simply can’t keep up.

It just smacks at wealth privilege. If you’ve got the money then you can pay for an average child to facilitate them getting a place. It does seem wrong because those places would be better suited to children that need no tutoring from lower income backgrounds. The ones that are truly academic and not the ones who have been tutored to within an inch of their lives.

Most people will disagree, because most people will have their child tutored so they can’t really agree as it makes them a hypocrite.

Again, the purpose of the grammar school was to facilitate social mobility for the brightest kids that otherwise wouldn’t get a chance to show their true potential. Now it’s just for the privileged. It is quite sickening really

I would actually go so far as saying that the schools should make it clear that if they find out a child was tutored then they would be removed from the school.

Obviously that won’t happen but it would be the fairest option.

Recruitment for grammar should all be done through intelligence testing rather then traditional grammar school testing to remove the crappy hot housing and open up opportunities to those who truest deserve them

I think it's more damaging for a kid's esteem to be the lowest achiever in a highly selective school than going to a normal school and performing Ok. We have a highly selective grammar in my town and the pressure on all the kids is relentless. I know so many kids who have come out of there with anxiety, depression, self-harming behaviours etc. Even if my kid was likely to make the grade, I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole...:

It's worth a shot, especially as you say she performs well under a bit of gentle pressure. FWIW, DS2 was in the remedial set for reading and writing until he was 8 or 9 but passed exams for superselective schools by age 11.
It's really important to frame it as a bit of a game though - let's just sit the exam and see rather than set it up as a hope that will disappoint if it doesn't work out. I'd say something like, 'Shall we have a go at the grammar exam, because if you passed it would be another option. but if you don't, it's no big deal because you have a place at X school.' Then give her some of the prep books to work through. My DC did 1 hour's prep a week, that's all.

@Porridgeoat

Recruitment for grammar should all be done through intelligence testing rather then traditional grammar school testing to remove the crappy hot housing and open up opportunities to those who truest deserve them

Completely agree!!

Children with SEN can have access arrangements for exams which can include having questions read out to them. I would explore whether grammar school exams have access arrangements and then see how she gets on with a past paper sat as she would do the entrance exam. I would also look at SEN provision in the school you’re interested in and their access arrangements for GCSEs etc.