Would you bother putting an average child in for the 11+

[Coppercreek]

Evening all, some friends chat about school allocations has turned me to thinking about secondary school for DD who is in year 4.

Our catchment high school is pretty dire. I had never thought much about the 11+ but am now wondering if it is worth putting DD in for it in the hope of getting a place at one fo the 2 lovely grammars nearby.

She is above average in maths but struggles with word questions and she is dyslexic so struggles with English however she has excellent understanding once a question is read to her (which is what happens at school). She is mildly dyslexic and although not at free reading level she is nearly there.

Am I going to cause her unnecessary stress and disappointment by aiming her at something she won't be able to do?

She gets pupil premium so she can score 10 points below the qualifying score and get a place. And we are in the priority catchment area.

I worry about her at either of our 2 catchment comps. Both have huge behaviour issues and lower than average GCSE and A level scores.

She had a tutor at the moment to help with her literacy skills as with us both working full time we don't have the time to help her with her homeschooling as much as we would like and if we were going to put her in for it we would continue with the tutoring.

Speaking to friends who have got their kids into the grammar we do need to start thinking about it by September as most of the kids seem to have some sort of prep for it.

@BungleandGeorge

Just my opinion but I think if your child can’t pass the test without tutoring then a grammar school probably isn’t right for them. Lots don’t agree with me though and practically everyone tutors! I think there are different tests too, some claim to rely less on prior learning, more of an IQ test. If the alternative schools are terrible maybe think about it. Are you sure the dyslexia is mild if she needs questions to be read out to her? Unfortunately some of the spelling/ English questions on the papers are really hard for dyslexics. Which is a shame as they don’t really reflect intelligence and ability in the subject. It does depend on what testing method they use though. Personally if you have money for tutoring I’d spend it on a specialist tutor. That will benefit the test and the rest of her education.

Do you know just how many children have private tutors for the 11+? It’s huge business. Tutors charge a lot, and its specific to the test, so not just general tutoring.

@Karwomannghia

Children with SEN can have access arrangements for exams which can include having questions read out to them. I would explore whether grammar school exams have access arrangements and then see how she gets on with a past paper sat as she would do the entrance exam. I would also look at SEN provision in the school you’re interested in and their access arrangements for GCSEs etc.

Access arrangements dont mean that they can have texts and questions read out to them on Reading papers though.

No
We didn’t put DS in for the 11+ despite his sister doing very well. She is very very academic but more importantly she is driven and wanted to do well so worked for it. DS didn’t want to go to The Grammar so I didn’t see the point. DH didn’t agree, he felt DS should do it but as he wasn’t going to the school whatever his score there was no need to put him through the (possibly stressful) process.
To be fair at that point DD was at Private school and the plan was for DS to go there too. In fact one of the reasons we chose Private for DD over Grammar was that we were pretty sure DS wouldn’t be able to go there and we wanted them at the same school.

Getting her in is the first step though - think about her needing tutoring throughout her secondary schooling! Also what it may do to her if she is constantly struggling (for example)

No obviously you don’t have the reading paper read out. But maths reasoning questions, other logic questions, extra time, overlays etc. It’s worth exploring what the school says they allow, the evidence they need and if they have good SEN support.

Do you know just how many children have private tutors for the 11+? It’s huge business. Tutors charge a lot, and its specific to the test, so not just general tutoring

@Soontobe60

You’re right it’s a huge business alright. The point is though, it shouldn’t be a huge business. It shouldn’t be normalised too have to hot house children to pass a test for a selective school.

It should be on natural ability alone.

Even in the full grammar counties, the 25-30% figures can be misleading. It's easy to assume from those figures that a third of the average primary class will be able to pass, but IME that's not the case. There are lots of very prepared candidates from prep schools and out of county that skew the figures - plus, more affluent areas will have disproportionate amounts of tutoring. In the two classes I've seen go through it, I would say that almost all of the 'really bright' kids did pass (they all had tutoring/practice to a degree, though a couple may have been able to pass without). But only one of the (many) 'reasonably able' kids passed, in spite of quite a number having lots and lots of tutoring. I think it often comes as a bit of a shock to affluent, aspirational parents of reasonably able kids that it's not as simple as paying for a year or two of tutoring and getting a pass. It's a tough test, and there are minimum scores on each paper here (not just overall), so children often fall down in one area.

For you OP, as others have said, I think it depends on how tough the test is in your area, whether your DD will enjoy (or at least happily tolerate) the practice work, whether the grammar would actually suit her if she got in, and how upset she would be if she didn't.

What is the Grammar's SEN support like? My DD has dyslexic and dysgraphia and we decided not to go the grammar route despite a high IQ in her diagnosis tests as they didn't have good SEN support.
She is flourishing in the top sets at a comp, no pressure, choses to work rather than forced to perform, she is very happy, doesn't have a long journey to and from the grammar, local friends.
So although we questioned our decision I know for her we made the right choices.

My DS did his 11+ and passed with the highest mark in the area. He wasn’t tutored though I did get him past paper for him to practice on. I agree that if a child needs tutoring to pass then once they’re at the school they will probably struggle to keep up. It would do nothing for a child’s confidence to be surrounded by high achieving peers when you’re struggling to keep up with them.

My Dd’s both good academically but attend the local academy. They didn’t sit the 11+ as they showed no interest and while they may have passed, i think they would have found it hard to go to grammar school. We’re lucky that there school has an outstanding ofsted score.

I would not be putting her in for 11+ but would be continuing with tutors. My year 10 has 3 hours tutoring every week and loves it.

@Coppercreek I have a dyslexic DS who has just sat and got his 11+ place at a private school. The key is to pick the right school - don’t aim
Art I finally or unrealistically high. Pick a school that will work with her to get her to her best ability whether that’s a grade A or a grade C!
The school my son is about to join, actually only scores slightly better at A level than our local outstanding comprehensive, but we went private for the smaller class sizes and extra 121 tuition and small group support that the private school will provide. Also my son is better in a smaller school where he can’t hide.

Also I would say 90% of parents tutor for 11+ . Not necessarily for the education side of things but teaching them what sort of things to put in to English papers that will get them extra marks, getting them used to doing timed papers and VR and NVR. My son was at a prep school and from
The end of year 5 onwards, all they did was prep for exams

I would discuss it with her and see what she thinks. If her friends' parents are having this conversation, the children may already be discussing it at school.

This happened to a friend who was planning to send her academically unmotivated DS to the (good) local non-selective school. Many of his friends were taking the 11plus, and he assumed he would be too. In the end they put him in for it because he is the sort of DC who might hold it against them forever if they didn't. To everyone's surprise he passed with flying colours and went off to the grammar school with his friends. Where he continues not to bother working to his potential, but that is another matter.

I wouldn't. Gloucs grammar school system here. 4 of DDs class of 30 passed and that was a clever year. 2 of DSs class of 30 passed. In DSs class the child who was THE maths genius didn't pass because of their not so stellar English.

It is a brutal system, and it is gutting for the kids that don't pass.

The 1-3 kids who are consistently absolutely top of the class - that's who will pass.

DD was that child and passed and her school is the best school for her. There is pressure, they have high expectations.

I didn't put DS in for the test and he is now 'top half' (possibly better) of classes at his comp. Regularly praised, good for his confidence.

I would weigh up your child's mindset - does the extra maths and english boost that will help for years regardless of 11+ outcome outweigh the confidence knock of not getting in to the selective school?

If you have a child that bounces back from setbacks then the extra english and maths will be amazing for years 7-8 and possibly further on. Conversely if the disappointment will really impact their confidence in their abilities as a whole and frame their learning then it will clearly not be worth it.

Yes! Please do! Don’t write her off as “not academic” at such as early age. Grasp the opportunity for an excellent education as you have nothing to lose and everything to gain. Good luck!

A lot to think over!

She has expressed an interest in the grammar but only so much as asking what school it was when we drove past it on the way to a riding lesson. I explained it was a girls grammar school and she was enthusiastic about the girls aspect! I think as she has some disruptive, loud boys in her class who she struggles with.

She is motivated and studious, all her reports say how hard she works and she has been amazing over homeschooling, knowing what she needs to do and cracking on with it including always doing the 'extra' tasks set.

The tutoring is something we will be continuing with as a minimum for the rest off this school year. Her tutor doesn't really do 11+ she is more of a dyslexia / behind / homeschool tutor. She was a teacher of year 5 and 6 and DDs school for many years and DD really enjoys her sessions.

She is a very resilient child but I am cautious about pushing her to hard so if anything I would brush off sitting it as something that she can do but not worry about the result.

I failed my own 11+ on purpose to spite my overbearing, pushy mother... much to my regret. She still now never let's me hear the end of it despite the fact she does not know I failed on purpose as I was an awkward child who found making friends hard and wanted to go to the local comp with my friends.

I have heard (from a teacher friend) that the reason most students have tutors is because the 11+ is comprised of things they would not have covered in school. So no matter how smart a student is, they will still need the tutoring.

@kateybeth79

I have heard (from a teacher friend) that the reason most students have tutors is because the 11+ is comprised of things they would not have covered in school. So no matter how smart a student is, they will still need the tutoring.

Well that’s not true always, although I see where you’re coming from, as I’ve heard similar.

My DC passed with no tutoring whatsoever. Tutoring absolutely helps, as you say though, and gives them the advantage for sure

@kateybeth79

I have heard (from a teacher friend) that the reason most students have tutors is because the 11+ is comprised of things they would not have covered in school. So no matter how smart a student is, they will still need the tutoring.

I am a teacher and an 11+ tutor.

This is not really true.

It does depend where you are. The CEM and GL tests are most widely used. These tests are based on the primary school curriculum up to and including year 6. That means that there are some things usually taught in year 6 which may appear on the test, and that they may not have covered.
There are some things which you do not do in school at all eg the Non Verbal Reasoning, and there are some things which they will know but may be presented in a slightly new way, like the way they present synonyms.

And for some kids, the experience of doing an exam is so new that they go to pieces, unused to timed tests. A small amount of practice and test familiarity goes a long way.

But the vast majority of what is covered is basic curriculum stuff. The problem is really that they have to have their whole curriculum at their fingertips. They may have learnt about fractions in Sept year 5, and then have a question on the exam a year later and have to remember how to do it.

BUT tutoring does not mean that they need expensive paid for specialist tutoring. Nor does it mean that they should be pushed and drilled beyond what they can do, as others have said, that will just store up problems for when they get to grammar school.

With a little bit of direction any parent can help their child prepare. It should be a matter of revision and exam technique/familiarity, with one or two new things.

There are always some kids who will pass it without any prep. They tend to be kids with great memories, who WILL remember how to do those fractions a year later, and kids who are voracious readers with amazing vocabulary and understanding. They may be the brightest in the class, or not, but it is certainly true that as 90% do do some preparation it would be putting your child at a disadvantage to do none.

Just to add, when I take in my new cohort of tutees every sept I am clear with parents that they can do this themselves and I'll give them a session explaining which books to use. Also I can spot within a couple of lessons which children don't really need tutoring, they could just come back in June for exam techniques and some practice.

But we have one school that is very hard to get in to and those kids are always aiming there, and it usually turns out that they have had some sort of private tuition before too. So parents would rather that I tutor them all through year 5 to be sure of getting into that school, and I have only ever had one parent who said they would do it themselves (and she was a teacher).

Having been through the Surrey grammar application with DS2 I agree with steppemum. Despite what previous posters have said, my belief is grammar school entrance is not about being well off and affording tutors. My observation of the parents at DSs grammar is they are mostly not particularly well off, but they are clued up and educationally ambitious for their kids. In this area at least, topics which are not covered in year 6 will be on the exam paper for maths. Tutoring/ preparing is vital as no matter how bright the kid, if they are faced with a task they’ve never seen before they won’t be able to do it. Parents can prepare their kids ( I did) but, especially if they are not teachers themselves, will have to spend hours understanding what the requirements of the test are and getting hold of preparation materials. The unfairness does not lie with economics, but with the disparity in parental motivation and the hoarding of knowledge by parents who are in the loop (tutor contacts, insights into exam content etc).

I agree with whatabout. In my dcs grammar school every child had tutoring- some at home working through the cgp/bond books, some with a tutor, some just doing the practice exams. When ds sat the test a child put their hand up and asked ‘what’s non verbal reasoning? I thought it was just going to be a comprehension test’. I guess their parents didn’t believe in tutoring. To pass, at least where I am, they need to have all their timestables / division tables absolutely at their fingertips and they need a large vocabulary. They need to have covered all the y6 stuff and be able to remember it. The test is fast and unfamiliar + in a new place so rocking up with no preparation when everyone else has at least practiced some past papers is daft, imo. The non-vr is not taught at school. The paper in our area is multiple choice and they have to answer on a separate grid which is marked by computer- all very unfamiliar if you haven’t had a few trial runs. My dcs needed tutoring to pass but are comfortably in the middle sets now. Ask your dcs teacher what they think?

Interesting thread. My DD2 also in Y4 sounds like the opposite of yours @Coppercreek in that she reads voraciously, but is definitely middle of the class in Maths. Her sister took the test for one of the super-selective grammars at the start of Y6 and is on the waiting list. I was just going to do past papers with her but when we started them in June of Y5 it became apparent that there was quite a bit she hadn't covered - could be they covered less because they had no school from March - but it felt like you would need to know the Y6 syllabus to pass. We got her a tutor once a week for the next 3 months and it helped her do far better than expected. But aside from the grammar, I've really seen how the pretty minimal tutoring has made Y6 a breeze for her and really improved her writing particularly.
So I'm tempted to do a bit of tutoring for Dd2 and then see whether the grammar feels like it's worth a punt or not. I feel it would really help her Maths regardless - although she's not very keen!

they need to have all their timestables / division tables absolutely at their fingertips and they need a large vocabulary. They need to have covered all the y6 stuff and be able to remember it. The test is fast and unfamiliar + in a new place so rocking up with no preparation when everyone else has at least practiced some past papers is daft, imo. The non-vr is not taught at school. The paper in our area is multiple choice and they have to answer on a separate grid which is marked by computer- all very unfamiliar if you haven’t had a few trial runs.

^ this, 100%