Are top private schools getting fewer oxbridge offers?

[Ijustwanttoask]

Just read in the papers about the drop in Oxbridge offers to Eton in the last few years. Is there a same trend for other big name public schools and top London day schools too?

In the past years, these schools generally happily announce the numbers of Oxbridge offers they get around this time of the year but I haven't seen much for 2021.

* Title edited by MNHQ by request* **

Dulwich is a good school but no way would anyone that knows the slightest thing about public or private schools think its a top or super selective,its certainly not one of the schools this thread was meant to be about.

[quote Tselliotsunderpants]@rattusrattus20 with all due respect I have 3 DCs who have all gone through the 11+ in south west London so I also know my schools pretty well. Dulwich College is not a super selective school - it is not in the same league academically as somewhere like KCS, Westminster or St Paul’s. There were boys at my sons prep who got places at Tiffin Grammar school but got rejected from the super selectives which are looking for boys scoring 130-135+ in their CATs while the threshold for Dulwich is 120 (information they will get from your DCs prep or primary school). Traditionally grammar schools look for a CAT of 118+ and consequently it’s not always the brightest kids that get in - tutoring has a huge impact as it will come down to who performs best on the test on the day. The 5 year Oxbridge hit rate for Dulwich is 14% whereas (for example) St Paul’s in 33%.[/quote]
I'm not sure we're disagreeing. Dulwich does extraordinarily well in terms of Oxbridge places given its modest entry requirements. It's almost impossible to avoid the suspicion that some of the kids there are less bright than GS kids who are getting turned away.

FWIW my son's in yr 5, has sat some form of CAT test in each of the last three years, his average scores have varied from, in each of years 3-5, mid 120's [yr 3] to high 130's [yr 4] to early 130's [yr 5], which is a pretty terrifying amount of variation, it shows how much depends on how well you do on the day, I've no idea where we'll end up sending him.

@nolanscrack

Dulwich is a good school but no way would anyone that knows the slightest thing about public or private schools think its a top or super selective,its certainly not one of the schools this thread was meant to be about.

It.Gets.25.Oxbridge.Offers.Per.Year. Despite being relatively easy to get into.

Doesn't this prove that there's a huge issue??? Argue, if you will, that a small handful of super-selectives are finding themselves unwitting victims of an issue that's real but mostly exists elsewhere, but most of the posts on here seem to be arguing that there's not an issue.

@Rattusrattus20 while Dulwich is relatively easy to get into compared to the London super selectives they still have a minimum “IQ” requirement (in the form of a CAT score) that is higher than that of a grammar school. Plus the super selective schools are oversubscribed with 10 applicants per place so they will get a lot of bright boys who missed the cut at the super selectives.

In regards to CAT tests you should disregard the year 3 test as it is a shortened version and very inaccurate. It is administered as a “practice” to get kids used to doing that sort of test.

You might get a broader range somewhere like Dulwich but still clever end too. Its other pluses might attract away from harder to get into schools, not least location.

@rattusrattus20 you should take a look at the Oxbridge numbers for the non selective private schools in the London area and you will see that they hardly get anybody into Oxbridge (and don’t expect to). If there was a gradual shift from private to state which was because of outreach work, raising standards in state education, persuading more excellent state candidates to apply then no-one would argue with that. It’s the high profile “culling” of Oxbridge places at certain schools to make a point that seems particularly unfair to the pupils impacted.

@Tselliotsunderpants - Dulwich harder to get into [academic ability wise] than grammar? which grammar are we talking about? that's a pretty bold claim if by it you mean any/almost any grammar, anywhere.

@rattusrattus20 academically yes. However the numbers are against you with the grammar schools are there are more candidates. At Dulwich you just have to prove you meet the academic bar while at the grammar it’s more of a lottery - missing two questions with silly mistakes can cost you the place.

I simply don't believe it's easier to get into London super-selective grammars than some of the private schools. Not on the basis of my own (albeit limited) experience with friends' DC. And remember that some of the children in the most prestigious pre/prep schools are already on their trajectory to get into the top most academically selective public schools from the off and are schooled accordingly. The same cannot be said for children doing the state-school route and onto grammar schools (unless they are tutored from the age of three!).

@NewModelArmyMayhem18 we had friends that started formal tutoring from the summer before reception, happily sent their DC to state primary and DC had on average three tutors a week throughout primary. Plus extensive EC six days a week, including three different classes on Saturdays.

[quote Soma]@NewModelArmyMayhem18 we had friends that started formal tutoring from the summer before reception, happily sent their DC to state primary and DC had on average three tutors a week throughout primary. Plus extensive EC six days a week, including three different classes on Saturdays.[/quote]
Blimey did they get where they wanted to go? Grammar or private?

This argument is a bit off-base. The minimum CAT score for entry isn't a reflection of the entire intake. Dulwich (similar to many schools) have a scholarship set that is academically gifted and more than capable of Oxbridge offers.

The test for grammars are different to private schools.

I suppose it must be cheaper still than just doing prep school which would be easier.

The point is that there are academically gifted children in all schools: state, grammar and private and from every background. This is evidenced by the grades they achieve.

More children outside of private schools and grammar schools need to be supported through the application process and via schemes and outreach.

Per the link below, Cambridge now specifically reserves 100 places for children from disadvantaged backgrounds. Apparently circa 1 in 4 students from Cambridge are now from disadvantaged backgrounds and they are hoping to improve this to 1 in 3.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-49614294

@SouthLondonMommy

This argument is a bit off-base. The minimum CAT score for entry isn't a reflection of the entire intake. Dulwich (similar to many schools) have a scholarship set that is academically gifted and more than capable of Oxbridge offers.

The test for grammars are different to private schools.

I agree with this. It will be a range and some will be capable as you say.

This foundation scheme being offered by Cambridge is also encouraging

www.theguardian.com/education/2021/jan/13/cambridge-university-to-offer-free-foundation-year-for-disadvantaged-pupils

Also, the figures quoted for the supers electives aren't really that high. If you read St Paul's ISI report, half of their pupils are in the top 3% nationally with the other half being at least in the top 10%.

A CAT score of circa 130 puts you in with a good shot given that half the intake is that bright but no school has 100% of its intake at that level. Also children that bright are in every type of state and private school. No where has the monopoly.

I really do feel sorry for the Admissions officers at Oxford and Cambridge respectively. If they give a reasonable high amount of offers to state school pupils , Parents whose kids attend Public/independent schools will complain likewise give a reasonable high amount to independent school pupils and Parents of Independent school pupils will complain.

Damned if they do, damned if they don't

@MarshaBradyo , grammar schools were not really a consideration for them, they went the independent route. I know many people who turn down grammar for independent as it's not about how many grade 9 at GCSE and As at A levels, it's about the journey. Particularly if your child is obviously gifted in music or creative arts, Oxbridge would not be the right route. Cambridge doesn't offer Fine Art , and Oxford's BFA is good, but there are much better arts universities.

I simply don't believe it's easier to get into London super-selective grammars than some of the private schools.

Of course it isn't. Would you pay £40k a year if you could get the same thing for free?

@UntamedWisteria

I simply don't believe it's easier to get into London super-selective grammars than some of the private schools.

Of course it isn't. Would you pay £40k a year if you could get the same thing for free?

Many do

Arguably not perceived to be the same thing by those that pay

[quote Soma]@MarshaBradyo , grammar schools were not really a consideration for them, they went the independent route. I know many people who turn down grammar for independent as it's not about how many grade 9 at GCSE and As at A levels, it's about the journey. Particularly if your child is obviously gifted in music or creative arts, Oxbridge would not be the right route. Cambridge doesn't offer Fine Art , and Oxford's BFA is good, but there are much better arts universities.[/quote]
Yes there are.

It was more a question on why not do pre-prep / prep rather than state and all that tutoring. But maybe they would have wanted to tutor with private anyway.

It's not easier. I know plenty of dc over the last 10 years who did not make any of the super selectives but were offered several indies ( N London).

@southlondonmommy yes the minimum CAT requirement for Dulwich is not reflective of the entire student body - it s just a reflection of the fact that the ability ranges are broader. Schools with higher CAT requirements have a much narrower range of academic ability, hence the fact they typically have more potential Oxbridge candidates.