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Original poster

calling frogs or any other experts on schools in london - getting into pushy selective private school 7+ entry

107 replies

bossykate · 11/10/2007 13:37

...thinking of moving ds from his high-performing state school to private. the nearest options for us are the dulwich foundation schools, which are of course very selective. what if any preparation would be necessary to ensure he has a decent chance of getting in? i don't want to go down the tutoring route but bet other parents will have no such scruples, not to mention the applicants that will be coming from pre-prep

please help!

OP posts:
Judy1234 · 14/10/2007 12:28

Fees - depends on the school. London is often more than outside London and traditionally boys schools have charged more than girls because the British liked their girls to be pretty and arrange flowers and money was wasted on their education as indeed it arguably is nowadays if they're just going to leave work and keep house.

North London c : "Fees
The fees for the Senior School for the Academic Year 2006/7 are £3506 per term (with discount of £20 for prompt payment, £40 if paid by termly direct debit.) Direct debit schemes operate for those parents who wish to pay by this method. No additional charge is made for text books, stationery or examination fees. For girls who wish to take school lunch a cafeteria service operates at a rate of £554.20 per annum. Individual music lessons are charged at £180 per term." (This is the school that is usually in the top 3 - 5 in the UK of all schools state private and boarding and day)

And Habs girls where my other daughter went...
Junior School £2,635 per term (£7,905 pa)
Middle and Upper School £3,140 per term (£9,420 pa)

Cammelia · 14/10/2007 18:30

Those fees are at the cheap end of the scale

Judy1234 · 14/10/2007 19:03

Two of the best academic largest girls' school in the Country in the outer London/ Herts area too.... which is interesting, isn't it?

Anna8888 · 14/10/2007 19:47

Just for the anecdote: we had a couple to dinner last night who live in Manhattan and who are currently applying to schools for their soon-to-be-five year old daughter.

They are looking at first year primary fees of around USD 28,000...

Judy1234 · 14/10/2007 21:40

£14,000 a year compared with £7905 below but actually twins 8 cost about £10k a year each - their fees which is not that much less than £14k and if we were in central London we might be nearer the £14k.

Anna8888 · 15/10/2007 09:10

Yes, but that's at current exchange rates and the dollar is particularly low right now.

Personally I think USD 28,000 for a five year old is outrageous . But apparently it's due to market forces - Manhattanites have got a lot richer in recent years and are no longer moving to the suburbs when they have children (and they used to have 1 or 2) - but staying in Manhattan and having 3 or 4. And there is no room to build new schools - any space is used for much more valuable residential or office development.

morningglory · 15/10/2007 09:49

The crazy thing about the States is that one pays so much is for DS/DD to get accepted into an Ivy League Level University, which will cost over $45,000 a year...for 4 years (estimated to be about $60,000 by the time our kids our in uni). Oxford and Cambridge are complete bargins in comparison.

The Manhattan example isn't unique. I grew up in the Mid-west in a medium sized town....I looked up to the school fees of my old school and it's $17,000 for Reception (increases every years after).

morningglory · 15/10/2007 09:51

Just to get back on topic, if one was considering Westminster Under or Colet Court, would it then be advisable to get tutoring (obviously only if one thought DS had the potential to excel there)?

LadyMuck · 15/10/2007 09:59

I linked to the Habs 7+ sample paper earlier in the thread. You may want to think about how well your ds could perform in that within the time, and see what you think.

I don't know whether it is a cultural thing but ime parents of Asian origin tended to get a tutor whereas others tended to help their children themselves. That may of course come with familiarity of the "system".

Cammelia · 15/10/2007 10:09

BK what do you think of those sample papers?

Judy1234 · 15/10/2007 15:26

We and indeed my own mother with us as children did a lot at home but some parents may not be so good at giving that help and use a tutor. I think the main reason to use a tutor at least for a little bit is to get practice at papers and a few hints and tips and also it does make some children do a bit more work than they might if their parent isn't very good at getting them to. Also it's hardly money wasted - it's better than an hour in front of the TV and even if they don't get in it might help them in their own school work where they are. It's a sort of insurance.

As for whether US or UK school fees are worth it presumably those parents who pay think that is so and it's a free market that shows it is worth it. Things are worth whatever people will pay whether that's the wages paid to footballers or bankers or cleaners or whatever.

3littlebats · 15/10/2007 15:39

From my own experience (limited to my own children, in North London) the exams for the fee paying schools tend to be easier than the exams for the selective state secondaries. We have done both. I had assumed that this is because they want the money - however, perhaps this is not the case everywhere. I didn't have a tutor for my children, but did do a bit of practice at home for a few weeks just to give them an idea of what the papers would be like.

There is a fine line between adequate practice, and tutoring to the test, so that the poor child is stressed and cannot cope with the work once they get into the school, and ends up having to be tutored all the way through. Mixed ability private is a good choice if it is affordable, as a child o9f average ability has a greater chance of doing well IMO.

3littlebats · 15/10/2007 15:42

Oops - sorry - just realised this is regarding 7 plus, not 11 plus.

TellusMater · 15/10/2007 15:43

When in the year does all this happen?

Feel like I inhabit a different world sometimes,and have no idea when in Year 2 children would do these tests.

Just nosey really...

LadyMuck · 15/10/2007 16:32

Usually the 7+ exams are in January of Year 2. Another reason why some parents resort to a tutor, as in general the 7+ is desigend to test the full KS1 curriculum, though presumably most state schools will have covered most by then anyway.

TellusMater · 15/10/2007 16:49

Thank you.

Had a peek at the papers and they didn't seem that dreadful (not that it is in any way relevant for us...) but DS is in year 2 and I think the only thing that would have freaked him out was the size of the lines he would have to write on (his writing certainly fail the 7+-awful ).

Judy1234 · 15/10/2007 17:03

I think at 7+ and ideally 11+ you have to try to make them think it doesn't matter, that there are a few schools they are going to have a go at getting into and that none of it matters very much. So whether you're tutoring or your hire one or there is none it's that issue that matters -are you hugely pressuring them and making them a nervous wreck or can you the parent be quite laid back about it.

I am not sure if 11+ tests for state grammars are harder than 11+ tests for schools like Haberdashers in Herts - you'd need to compare some Bucks grammar papers with those but in most areas of the country there are no state grammars so it's not something you can easily compare.

Cammelia · 15/10/2007 17:13

I don't think the tests themselves differ, I think they are all aimed at the same cognitive level.

Its that the state grammars are far more oversubscribed so a higher pass mark is needed to get in.

Original poster
bossykate · 15/10/2007 17:28

thank you very much everyone for these further comments.

i am considering all the valuable input here.

i had hoped to come back with a detailed post but am very pressed for time right now.

i have established a "hit list" for open days.

we are going to see ds's teacher tomorrow (reading - again that's why we are thinking of moving him ) and i will talk to her about the maths syllabus for the year. ds has not done all the things that might be expected from a y2 child yet. the question is how much would he have covered by the time the test comes round - certainly not all of it for sure.

btw frogs and anyone else, ds is y2 (obv) and is still on stage 6 of ORT at school - he's in the top group for reading in his class! and he's a bright boy in a bright cohort, as far as i can tell. surely the class should have gone faster? he's reading chapter books at home...

thank you all very much and i hope to get back with a more satisfying response v soon

OP posts:
Original poster
bossykate · 15/10/2007 17:33

actually, i would like to know views on roughly how far through ORT a bright y2 child "should" have progressed before tomorrow am! that's why we are going to see her - the vast yawning chasm of his demonstrated reading ability and the level of these books, plus 3 weeks went by without his reading book being changed...

grr.

so tia for any input on that

OP posts:
Cammelia · 15/10/2007 17:44

I have heard teachers say that there are certain words and vocabulary that the books cover - and that therefore it is important not to miss any out

Zazette · 15/10/2007 17:44

That's a bit of a shocker about ORT - my dd is in yr2 in a not-even-slightly-pushy school with very mixed intake, and ORT 6 is about the middle of the class, I'd say - she's a bit below, the best readers are on independent reading, and have been for a while. And there are far more academically-inclined schools in our neighbourhood that would be pushing kids further still up that bloody tree.

Original poster
bossykate · 15/10/2007 17:46

they go through every single book in the scheme - the trunk, the branches, the supplements... i think it is part of the school's literacy strategy...

OP posts:
TellusMater · 15/10/2007 17:49

Not sure about ORT.

Ds's school don't do it. Nor are they grouped for reading as far as I'm aware. And they can miss out books on each of their (clolur) levels when they are good enough to go up a level.

DS is (only just) a 'free reader'. He is above average for his class according to Parents Evening, but don't know what the average is.

Why am I on this thread? I know nothing...

TellusMater · 15/10/2007 17:50

colour

Blimey - what happened there?