calling frogs or any other experts on schools in london - getting into pushy selective private school 7+ entry

[bossykate]

...thinking of moving ds from his high-performing state school to private. the nearest options for us are the dulwich foundation schools, which are of course very selective. what if any preparation would be necessary to ensure he has a decent chance of getting in? i don't want to go down the tutoring route but bet other parents will have no such scruples, not to mention the applicants that will be coming from pre-prep

please help!

AAARGH!! I wish DS could stay 2 years old forever when I read these threads...... BK, will be interested to hear where you come out on this, as I have pretty much exactly this decision ahead of me at some future point in time, I suspect......

And actually as the school is in neither of the localities of it's name...what about 'geographically misplaced school'?

Blu

BK, this may seem like a daft question but have you asked the school(s) you are interested in exactly what their admissions criteria are?

Have you looked around those schools, first visit without ds and second visit (if you like it) with ds?

I would do those things initially (and immediately)

I would also not go down any kind of coaching route. I would explain the technique of tests (but not refer to them as that in order to prevent anxiety), eg. answer all the questions, missing out any that are very hard and go back to them when you have done all the ones you can do.

I think pressure is counterproductive and I genuinely believe that for 7+ tests the chidren who get in do so despite any tutoring.

Contact the British Pyschological Society. (They are on the internet of course) Ask for details of your nearest Chartered Educational Pyschologists with a private practice. Get your child properly assessed. Cost about 200 pounds. You will get a really useful report which will give you an idea of what sort of school environment would be best for your child.

I agree with the others that "pushing a child" can be bad especially if it results in them scoring out of their league. An independent evaluation by an expert helps a lot. And you find out roughly what their league is>

What are your plans for secondary, bossykate? State secondary schools generally have a wider range of after-school activities than the primary schools do, and by that stage the children could make their own way to them.

My knowledge of private schools is fairly scant (derived from knowing a very small number of pupils/parents, driving down the South Circ, and a very occasional glance over to The Other Side ) but I'd observed that:

If you went straight for the junior section of the huge school that dominates the landscape, then entry to the senior part is automatic, but the fees are higher that way.

Flowery alcoholic place frequently appears in the local press for a pupil getting the top scholarship to the huge school, and there's quite often a big banner outside at the right time of year saying all the pupils got into their first choice. They have a number of good chess players.

Grassy tree place seems to equip pupils with more than ample vocabulary to go into the state sector, which some pupils do. Having said that, the school really did a lot for DS1's friend, whose talents were not recognised at his previous school, and he didn't change in the way some children do when they go to private schools.

I'm surprised you're not closer to the schools on TheBlonde's recent thread - but perhaps you have reasons for avoiding those? (I think I can see a few....) For somewhere that may have less of a gulf to bridge from where your son is now, what about the Norwood nuns? (I suspect you may tell me I'm jumping to a huge and totally incorrect conclusion here...)

Ha, a thread with my name in it! But at being thought expert on pushy London schools...

Dd1 did 7+ (and was offered places) at City and SHHS. For the right child you don't need to tutor imo. 11+ is a different animal, but at 7+ they need to be able to read well, fluently and with expression and understanding. 'Danny the Champion of the World' is the type of book they expect them to be able to cope with. They need to be able to do basic maths, with 2, 3, 4, 5, and 10x tables, basic four operations and understand money and simple measurement. For English they should be able to write a decent story. Nothing a bright Y2 child shouldn't be able to do with a little bit of gentle practice.

Having said that, faced with the option of cramming dd1 with her 3 and 4x tables over the Christmas holidays, I thought 'stuff it' and bottled out. As far as I'm aware she didn't know them (or not well) when she took the exam. She could write stories well, but not to time -- she told me she didn't finish the one in the test. And particularly at City the bulk of the applicants come from the hot-housey N. London prep schools; SHHS have more state school entrants, I think. The no. of children coming in from state schools both at 7+ and 11+ should give you some indication of how prepared the school are at dealing with and making allowances for children from both systems.

IME 7+ is more about looking at a child's potential than what they've been taught. At 11+ the difference from state NC curriculum is more pronounced, so a modicum of tutoring is probably advisable. But at 7+, if you think a child needs more than a little gentle practice, you might want to think about whether it's the right school for that child. FWIW, I don't think most of the pushy London schools are quite as selective as they'd have you believe, apart from Westminster/Colet Court & co. It's simply not statistically possible for there to be that many geniuses in any given year group among the offspring of middle-class Londoners.

"I don't think most of the pushy London schools are quite as selective as they'd have you believe"

That was exactly what I was trying to say, Frogs - only you said it much better than I did!

Hallgerda - we (flower alcohol) parents are pushing NOT to have that bloody banner this year!! BK I think there's a lot of very sensible advice here? And lots of open days coming up, so you could have a good nose around. I think any school would be pleased to have your DS - I think he would cruise it!

I agree Jan. I honestly can't see him having any problems bk so I think to some extent you are better placed than many to investigate several of these cryptic establishments and decide which one would suit him best
You were right to shout out for Frogs though - that is succinct advice indeed and what you say about the recruitment for City makes sound sense

I think things are pretty mad in this corner of London, actually. It doesn't help that the boys' schools people really want round here are Colet Court and King's College Junior School, both of which are very selective.

But I think, seeing how children are prepared for them, that even they must have more precociously competent above-average kids than real academic superstars.

Anyway, how can you tell an academic superstar at 7?

Frogs "It's simply not statistically possible for there to be that many geniuses in any given year group among the offspring of middle-class Londoners. "

Where do I nominate this for quote of the week ?

Just want to agree with frogs that selective schools are never as selective as you might think. Ds1 and dd go to a SW school that bills itself as being for bright children (eeek, it always makes me want to put a bag over my head when I see that ) and yet the school has a huge and excellent special needs dept, and, because of the way they assess (looking for potential, not children who have been flashcarded) they have a very high proportion of dyslexic and dyspraxic children too. So the ability levels in the classes is nicely mixed and that's the way they like it. They are able to respond to the needs of both the scarily mathematical children and the children who needs extra help with reading and writing. I imagine the Dulwich schools are also keen on potential at 7+ - potential in many areas inc, art, drama and music.

Can't help but notice that BK has run away and we are all talking among ourselves....!

Frogs - do you think your comment applies to 11+ as well (in hope....)??

The thought of tutoring a 6 yr old makes me feel physically sick. These kids will get 5 A's at A level and be emotional cripples, FFS! Kids arebn't even at school in many other European countries at this age. Jeeeez.

We moved my DD to an independent girl's day school this year (year 4) from the local school. I tutored her myself using Bond and a couple of past papers from some other 8+ independent schools. She took a couple of entrance tests one for a highly academic girl's school (she didn't get in she got a high score for the maths, which I tutored her in, but her English "wasn't up to it", despite that naturally being her stronger subject). For the school she did get into (also academic, but more middle-ranking), I did get her writing a few stories and doing some indepth comprehensions (compared to the private pre-preps, from my experience, they get very scant experience of this in state schools in Y2 and Y3). Now she's at the school, she's flourishing and has no problem keeping up. The same goes for the other girl who joined from a different local state school. Before she took these tests, I did think that if private schools had a space, and your child doesn't have any obvious learning difficulties, then they would be falling over backwards to take them. Not the case! I know for fact that the first school she didn't get in to had space for several more children in the class in her year. So it is worth doing some basic tutoring just to be sure. I agree its ridiculous, and it should be about potential. After all, we're moving them because we're not happy with the education they've received in the state sector, but there you are. Now she's in the independent school, she has a completely different attitude towards learning and she's far more focused ...

"Before she took these tests, I did think that if private schools had a space, and your child doesn't have any obvious learning difficulties, then they would be falling over backwards to take them. Not the case! I know for fact that the first school she didn't get in to had space for several more children in the class in her year. "
Quote slondonmum

Your experience rather proves what I thought wouldn't be the case slondonmum

I do find it surprising - they are businesses and depend on fees to survive -- surely if they aren't operating at full capacity they need bums on seats? My daughter went to a GDST school before and that was definitely the case there ... I have always thought it was much more difficult to get into a good state school (I still think that) but this did surprise me ...

how much do private schools cost?

LA, children love to learn. Many parents deny them that chance. Arguably you cripple them by not expanding their knowledge and children like this who do well at A level are not emotionally cripples. Mine haven't got 5 As but the 3 at univesrity have done reasonably well in private schools from age 4+ and it's been very good for them indeed in all kinds of ways.

My second daughter went to North London Collegiate at 7+ (in the days it started at 7+). She saw a local teacher once a week for a year just practising papers etc and we used to do spellings and tables on the tube and reading on the way into her previous school which was quite fun and certainly didn't feel like pressure for her or for me.

Why would anyone not want to move a child from a high performing state school to private if it's a better private school. You only have to look at life outcomes and Oxbridge entry and composition of British board, surgeons any career you care to mention and those who do well are educated well more often than not in the private sector. And they speak better and have more hobbies and a better life over all. It's a no brainer if you can afford it.