calling frogs or any other experts on schools in london - getting into pushy selective private school 7+ entry

[bossykate]

...thinking of moving ds from his high-performing state school to private. the nearest options for us are the dulwich foundation schools, which are of course very selective. what if any preparation would be necessary to ensure he has a decent chance of getting in? i don't want to go down the tutoring route but bet other parents will have no such scruples, not to mention the applicants that will be coming from pre-prep

please help!

Can't advise from an informed local perspective, but wishing you luck just the same bk
Have you thought about asking the school outright about their views on the tutoring issue? Asking them to come clean as to how good they are at spotting who's been crammed?
Certainly when two boys made the 7 + move from ours (independent but not academically selective or pushy, as you know) to our local Pushy Towers, I know they weren't tutored. Both were what I would describe as bright but not excessively so, with good parental support.

thank you.

it is just at the idea stage at the moment but i don't think we have a huge amount of time if we decide to cram the little so and so!

am half thinking of doing exactly the same with our ds. Have the registration forms sitting beside me. Have you bought the Bond verbal and non-verbal reasoning books?

One was a very late decision so I don't think they had time either - and he passed with flying colours, they both did

Can't really help, BK, but just wanted to wish you luck. It's a minefield out there, I tell you, a minefield!

Oh, and don't forget that other parents LIE about whether or not their little darlings have been tutored and that they make the entrance exams sound far more difficult than they really are. When DD1 was moving to secondary school, we made her sit for 7 different schools, so brain-washed had we been by other parents saying: "Oh, it's very difficult to get into, you know, she'll need X Y Z". All bullshit, as she got places at all of them and she's no genius (gorgeous, but not a genius!)

Can anyone shed any light on how one gets a 6 year-old to comply with being tutored, anyway? Amidst the homework, reading practice, and special preparations for class assembly / harvest festival? DS is wiltiing under the pressure of existing stuff - there would be no co-operation or energy for tutoring!

(not that we're considering moving, or tutoring, i am just intrigued!)

am interested, though appreciate it is none of my business at all, but why would you want to move a child from a 'high-performing state school' to private?

Blu, I have never met a six year old willing to go along with anything approaching being crammed either So I suspect that a lot of fibbing goes on, as SmartArse says.
I am sure what does help is making sure the child has seen questions and so on, in that format and layout before, and has had a go at answering some sample tests.

I know a child being prepared for SW London 7+ entrance exams who is being tutored, and has been since 3rd term of Y1. The school also does special reasoning classes, special story-writing classes, mock exams and interview practice. They also set loads of homework.

Have no idea whether all this is necessary and if he gets in I guess his mother won't know whether he would have done without the tutoring etc. The tutor is full up and survives on the recommendation of the parents' of other successful 7+ candidates.

I did ask his mother how she gets him to comply with all the work. She has bribed him with a DS if he gets in and she says he also knows there is no choice .

Oh, my goodness singersgirl. I think SE and SW London have a different climate from what you say...

thank you so much everyone for these responses

in no particular order...

twig the school is high up in the league tables with aggregate scores of 290+ in sats, outstanding ofsted, good behaviour, diverse intake etc. however i think the focus is much more on how the school does rather than on how individual children are doing iyswim. they are not doing particularly well by ds in my book. it wouldn't be fair to say they are failing him, but otoh i think he is more than able to coast with what they give him. how much does that matter at his age? not sure tbh. the other factor is the dismal lack of after-school enrichment activities - no metrics measured and published so not done imho received wisdom seems to be that one can easily make up the relative lack of facilities in state schools with parental input, but with two parents woh f/t it simply isn't possible for us to deliver what is needed imho. i don't think ds needs to be doing something for his cv every afternoon but he has asked to do tai kwon-do (sp?) and guitar lessons like his friends. this doesn't seem unreasonable but there isn't enough time at the weekend to fit these activities in. life would be much easier for us if there were more activities available on site at the school. i don't feel we really have enough time to make up for the unstretching academics much either.

blu - how to ensure compliance? no idea. but people do manage it as singersgirl says. although as smartar$e says parents also lie

mwamwa bond papers are a good place to start i think.

batters i wouldn't say naive - rather charmingly unjaded and free from cynicism results in any kind of test are dramatically enhanced by familiarity with the type of test... so if none of the other children are crammed, then it wouldn't be necessary, but if the other children are prepared for the test, either by tutoring or by their prep (as singersgirl says), then no matter how bright your child they will be at something of a disadvantage. imvho. to my shame i don't know RM?

thanks very much to all for these replies. as i said, it's just an idea at this stage as we are coming up to a natural exit point from state to private. there are lots of reasons not to go down this route of course.

oh duh. rm - got it now. duh

I'm just putting my hand up to admit that DD1 did have a tutor for a term and a half before she took her 11+. There are essentially two reasons for this:

Firstly, because I thought it best that she be prepared with regards the questions she might be asked and I had no experience of what might appear in the papers or in what format. Of course, I could easily have done this myself, but as a WOHM, I tried and failed. By the time I got home in the evening, made the supper, chatted to DCs and what not, it was too late: she was tired and grumpy, I was tired and grumpy, and we had a major falling-out every time! And we do have a life outside school work! So I decided to pay someone else to do it for me! She wasn't actually taught anything, but the tutor would do an exam paper with her every week so she was familiar with the format. She was in the state sector so there was no preparation at all in class for children who might be trying for the private sector (and quite rightly, particularly as she was the only one).

Secondly, I bowed to pressure from other people, who sucked their teeth and said: "Oooooh, she'll need to be tutored, you know"!

I'm just admitting to this because I wouldn't like you to think there was anything to be ashamed about when tutoring children! I specifically told the tutor beforehand that I didn't want her teaching, because in theory she had already learnt the topics, but that I did want her familiarising with the way an exam paper is presented. I also found the tutor really helpful with regards pitching DD1 for particular schools, by which I mean she was able to confirm that she was capable of getting into a selective school. Likewise, I had asked her to be honest and tell me if I was barking up the wrong tree!

Obviously, the move your DS is doing is different to the 11+, but I guess what I'm trying to say, in a very roundabout manner, is don't be put off by other people's attitudes! There are plenty of selective schools in London and I honestly believe there is a place at one for any child/parent who wants one for whatever reason! I'm pretty sure my DD wasn't the only one sitting for several schools!

One thing I might say is that if you do some tutoring, with a tutor/group that knows the schools well, you are likely to get a very savvy, possibly even blunt, assessment of whether your ds will get in or not.

My ds (despite being "one of the brightest we've ever had" - per the tutor) was fired from his tutoring group because they were sure he wouldn't be accepted at relevant school. (I don't blame or resent them for firing him, by the way - it was a learning experience all round.)

I take it RM is flower followed by alcoholic honey drink . Had you considered tree followed by grassy area in farmland? A friend of DS1's moved there in Year 4 - I very much doubt he was tutored, and the school obviously did a lot for him.

Most schools will give you a copy of a past entrance exam paper (ask the admissions departments). You can't revise for these type of tests but it does help to know what to expect..... it makes it more relaxing for the child if they have seen the format before. We transferred from state to independent and the new school were terrific at holding our hand and making us welcome (they even invited DS2 to see the library where he would sit his entrance exam). Tell them you are transferring from the state sector and feel in the dark over what to expect from the entrance exam.

I wouldn't think you'd need to tutor at all for flower alcoholic drink, though grassy tree place would probably be advisable. Flower alcoholic drink do offer a fairly good range of extra curric activities. But I suspect you are looking further round the S Circ? Did DH not attend a somewhat more prestigious establishment than our homely little lefty run hotchpotch?

Sorry - left out an "it" - At grassy trees IT would probably be advisable to tutor.

Would check the websites of some of the other London schools for example past papers, though obv the most important ones are the ones you are aiming at. Some schools do seem to assume some existing knowledge I think. Habs prep school does papers in English and Maths, and are worth looking through. But if you are just looking at verbal and non-verbal reasoning then it is still worth asking the school what level of maths is assumed. The main difference in what I see the dcs preprep doing in comparison to their friends at state school is that they did all of their timestables up to 12 in Year 1, and likewise they have been doing English comprehension exerises since Year 1. But the 7+ assessment there is, as you observe, an exercise to highlight ability/potential rather than knowledge already obtained.

Batters I have failed miserably to come up with any kind of metaphoric pseudo reference for your school....!

'Disparate non-adjoining local placces gender specific school'