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Original poster

Attempt to establish a secular school - article in Grauniad

156 replies

UnquietDad · 03/10/2007 10:42

This came up in the blasphemy thread but I think it deserves a discussion of its own.

here tis

Me, I'm quite happy for my children to go to school with the children of Jews, Christians, Muslims, Seventh-day Adventists, Apocalyptists, atheists, agnostics, don't-care-ists, Worshippers of the Great Spaghetti Monster and people who believe the Royal Family are lizards and we should all wear turquoise. But some of them don't want my child to go to school with theirs.

OP posts:
bossykate · 03/10/2007 14:35

and your point is? s'ok for us lovely woolly liberal c of e folk - but yah! booh! sucks! those left-footers! they bend the knee to a foreign tyrant you know!

do you live in lewes by any chance

Gobbledispook · 03/10/2007 14:35

Vive la France!

bossykate · 03/10/2007 14:35

that was to qoq.

Original poster
UnquietDad · 03/10/2007 14:37

Catchments seem the fairest idea, but of course it would create its own problems - e.g. people moving into certain areas with good schools and upping the house prices. You already see it to a certain extent.

But why should you have a school with a "broadly Christian ethos"? Why should schools use something whose existence is utterly debatable (i.e. can be debated) as a pre-requisite for admission? In the state sector? Are believers in Zeus discriminated against? In Thor? I just don't get it. What's wrong with keeping all this in church and, if you so desire, at home?

OP posts:
coffincarrier · 03/10/2007 14:37

yes it is to do with the Education Act, which can be erm repealed! like laws can.
I doubt it is anything to do with the constitution. but it is a loooooong time since I studied constitutional law so I stand to be corrceted.
actually Marina, I was thinking more about the lions

WitnessProtectionCod · 03/10/2007 14:38

wellthey haev built a school with no staff room]

coffincarrier · 03/10/2007 14:39

I think schools should serve their local community and, you know, educate.
I think any type of indoctrination is pretty unethical if state funded. of course we are all free to indoctrinate our own children willy nilly. that is what democracy is about.

TheQueenOfQuotes · 03/10/2007 14:42

and I've just looked at the admissions criteria for one of the 3 (non-church) local senior schools 2nd on their list of criteria (after the standard 1st one as mentioned in previous posts is

"2. As a Specialist Mathematics and Computing School the governors have decided that 10% of places are allocated on the basis of aptitude in Information Technology established by tests taken at the school."

Great - so one of my top choices of senior school for DS1 (when he's finally old enough) selects 10% of it's pupils on aptitude in one subject......and having looked the other decent(ish) (we only have 3 senior schools in the town serving over 20 primary schools - we did have 4 but they knocked one down to build houses ) they also have a 10% "selected" too.

Cammelia · 03/10/2007 14:43

Well, yes, cc to the Education Act (the tenets therein being based on the non-secular state state in which we reside)

Original poster
UnquietDad · 03/10/2007 14:44

Niods to what coffincarrier said, essentially!

I can't stop you teaching your children what you consider to be your faith and what I consider to be superstitious baloney. It's your right. Just as it's my right to tell my daughter that The Hobbit is a true story (although it would be a bit daft and irresponsible of me to do so).

What should not be a right is for this to affect which school my child, or yours, goes to - unless you want to pay for it.

OP posts:
Cammelia · 03/10/2007 14:45

If you like, education is being dispensed in the name of the state (the non-secular.....I give up)

Gobbledispook · 03/10/2007 14:46

My secondary school choices are

Pass 11+ and entrance exam
Pay to get in and pass entrance exam
Crap comp
Catholic school (er, no chance then)

TheQueenOfQuotes · 03/10/2007 14:47

"You can opt or opt out, non religious families have NO CHOICE!!!!!"

you do - you can opt out of the religious aspects at ANY school .

"What's wrong with keeping all this in church and, if you so desire, at home?"

because - as I explained before most Christians don't just "do Sundays" and are "non-Christians" for teh rest of the week - it's a part of their life.

Like it or not this is still a broadly Christian country and that ain't going to change overnight

and you do realise that this debate (where none of us on either side - or those on the fence - are going to change their minds no matter how many 100's of posts we write ) has stopped me from going to town.......I'll now have to drag all 3 DS's in with me after I've got DS1 from his (CoE) Church

TheQueenOfQuotes · 03/10/2007 14:48

Gobblie - question is - is the Catholic school any good???

coffincarrier · 03/10/2007 14:49

no, QoQ you can't. in a faith school, indeed in the majority of schools, the religious aspects are not something one can opt out of. they are imbedded in the curriculum, which is exactly what the article is about.

Original poster
UnquietDad · 03/10/2007 14:51

This "Christian country" thing is a matter for debate; I wonder how many people are actively Christian.

I am not just talking aboiut "keeping it all for Sundays", but it should not affect school selection.

Look at it another way - as I always seem to end up drawing this analogy. What if your local school was a Manchester United school? Your kids had to wear the strip, watch the matches, sing the songs... (It's not that fanciful. Roughtly the same nunmber of people go to football as go to church regularly - about 2 million - and an awful lot of them see it as a "way of life").

What if you were a Sheffield Wednesday supporter and that was your local school?

What if you hated football?

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TheQueenOfQuotes · 03/10/2007 14:53

tbh I'm not sure how it's embedded in the curriculum.....I can't say that DS1's (nearly said DH's then ) school work has shown anything particularly religious....although he did bring home some brilliantly coloured in work sheets about Diwalli (sp) - even when they visited the church to be shown around and then went back to school to draw something they'd seen.......what did DS1 do??

"in the church there is a piano".......and drew a lovely picture of a piano - we've got one of those at home too (actually it looked more like the one we have at home than the church one too LOL).

Tortington · 03/10/2007 14:53

as it should be.

I am of the opinion that RE schools should exist if the worshippers pay for it.

i do not agree that the state should fund RE places.

I also do not agree that RE should be seperate from school life.

I also think that if you send your child to a catholic school your child should participate fully in school life

Cammelia · 03/10/2007 14:53

The Head of State is Christian. ergo the state is Christian.

Tortington · 03/10/2007 14:54

re UQD and Leprechauns. am quite frankly flabberghasted

i dont see why its ok to mock somenes faith especially as we have a climate on MN at the moment where ever fecker gets deleted all over the shop and one person got banned.

Original poster
UnquietDad · 03/10/2007 14:55

RE should be there, definitely. I don't want to ignore religion just because I personally don't think any of it is true. Otherwise my children would never study Greek and Egyptian mythology, and that would be a great shame!

OP posts:
TheQueenOfQuotes · 03/10/2007 14:56

I DO Hate football...........but is hasn't stopped me buying the DS's a football and smiling (gritting my teeth ) at him playing footie in the playground with his friends at breaktime when I walk past...... .

And if it was a Manchester United school I would just opt out of my DS's singing the "hymns" (songs) - and ermm - not sure about your point about the strip - I think most schools in teh UK have a school uniform....which children of all faiths wear regardless of what type of school it is

Original poster
UnquietDad · 03/10/2007 14:56

I don't seriously think I am going to get banned for drawing a comparison between one set of myths and another.

If I do, I shall eat my computer.

OP posts:
coffincarrier · 03/10/2007 14:56

well we could change the constitution, if indeed the constitution doesn't allow the funding of secular education. which I doubt, frankly.

Cammelia · 03/10/2007 14:57

UQD I think you're somewhat confused