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Original poster

Attempt to establish a secular school - article in Grauniad

156 replies

UnquietDad · 03/10/2007 10:42

This came up in the blasphemy thread but I think it deserves a discussion of its own.

here tis

Me, I'm quite happy for my children to go to school with the children of Jews, Christians, Muslims, Seventh-day Adventists, Apocalyptists, atheists, agnostics, don't-care-ists, Worshippers of the Great Spaghetti Monster and people who believe the Royal Family are lizards and we should all wear turquoise. But some of them don't want my child to go to school with theirs.

OP posts:
Blu · 03/10/2007 13:48

I agree, Marina - I have no interest in having a go at religious beliefs, and don't see the need fro it in order to discuss the provision of secular schools!

scampadoodle · 03/10/2007 13:49

It really pisses me off that the best (primary) state schools in my borough are church schools, either RC or CofE, & they are so over-subscribed that if you do not go to church then forget it. As a lapsed Catholic married to a secular Jew my children weren't even baptised (would've caused too much friction with DH's family) so there's no way they could have gone to one of them, even though I have absolutely no objection to my DCs taking part in Christian activities - they get their Jewish stuff via my in-laws. & as another poster pointed out, our taxes pay for these schools! Luckily we live within the catchment for a decent, non-selective primary & they go there, but what about those who don't?

Incidentally, although my sons' school teaches them about different religions, as far as I know there's no 'daily act of worship'. TBH, I'm not sure it would bother me if there were...

Marina · 03/10/2007 13:50

Huh coffincarrier, you want us all back in the catacombs . For the first time in my unexciting life of high C of E worship I am starting to understand why St Paul sounded so frenzied a lot of time

bossykate · 03/10/2007 13:51

well for all the secular model of french education, it has hardly made for a harmonious cohesive society has it? despite the absence of the terrible divisiveness of faith schools...

TheQueenOfQuotes · 03/10/2007 13:51

but is it the fault of the Christian schools that the other local ones are not so "good"??

Marina · 03/10/2007 13:51

I know you don't Blu, but I do get the feeling that some of our atheists are fuelled by more than a completely justified concern about the role of the established church, and religious observance in state education provision!

Blu · 03/10/2007 13:52

(I am sure that the 'act of Daily worship' in DS's school is heavily disguised within assembllies like this morning's where they sang 'Lean on Me' and discussed the different poeple you can get suport from and how to respond if someone comes to you with a worry!. But when Ofsted come calling they will have to do a crash course in the Lord's Prayer)

Original poster
UnquietDad · 03/10/2007 13:52

Marina, I don't understand the question. I don't want to keep on about Spagheiit Monsters and Celestial Teapots and the like! I'd love it if there were no need for me to do so.

OP posts:
bossykate · 03/10/2007 13:52

lol at back in the catacombs! hehehe

Hallgerda · 03/10/2007 13:52

I think the point's been missed about the Flying Spaghetti Monster - it's a dig at the US born-again Christians and their power over education there, and not a serious religion.

Marina · 03/10/2007 13:52

Fair point bk but hey, they can't pin it on the Church(es) over there, which is the main thing

TheQueenOfQuotes · 03/10/2007 13:52

ooo bossy your 13.51 post said what I was trying to say in a much more literate way (can you tell I didn't go to a heavily oversubscribed, highly rated by Ofsted CoE school - I went to the school in my catchment area.........which was cr*p ).

bossykate · 03/10/2007 13:52

well said marina.

Blu · 03/10/2007 13:54

But is any of this an argument as to why a secular school should be a legal impossibility in this country?????

Marina · 03/10/2007 13:54

UQD, we all know you think people with a faith are irrational and presumably less worthy of consideration. So you don't have to remind us all in every thread that you think Christians are no better than avid readers of the Fortean Times. do please take it as understood!

TheQueenOfQuotes · 03/10/2007 13:55

oh but Marina - I AM irrational (with or without my beliefs )

Blu · 03/10/2007 13:55

or....is it right that a school should be forced by law to have worship? If the governors and community want a school that offers that option?

Gobbledispook · 03/10/2007 13:56

CD 13.16 - says it all for me.

Original poster
UnquietDad · 03/10/2007 13:56

QoQ - interesting question. But are the other schools good because they are Christian or becaus the parents take an interest? isn't it the fact that all the middle-class parents offering supportive homes will go for the "better" school if they have the power to do so? if so, it's no wonder that the other schools trail.

If you send out the perception that one school in the borough is "better" - for whatever reason - it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. I've seen it happen in the city where I live with the schools at the top of the league table, even though they're not "faith".

OP posts:
Marina · 03/10/2007 13:57

Blu, I genuinely think it is wrong, myself. But I know the majority of Christians don't agree.
To me, it invokes needless and counterproductive hostility towards faiths.

bossykate · 03/10/2007 13:57

uqd, imagine how you'd feel if you were being constantly damned to hell here on mnet and you'll get the picture how your comments on celestial teapots and the like grate rather... as marina says, do please take it as read that we know you think we're well - stupid, irrational, delusional, war-mongering, bigoted etc etc

scampadoodle · 03/10/2007 13:57

Was that a question for me, QofQ? I have no objection to how the church schools are run, apart from their admissions policy - I'm neither an atheist nor an agnostic. I think religion can provide a framework which is good for children & young people, as long as it is tolerant & non-fundamentalist. But why cannot ALL state schools translate this framework into a secular format? I do not think any state-funded school should discriminate on the grounds of religious faith.

Original poster
UnquietDad · 03/10/2007 13:58

marina - believe me, I'll shut up about it when they do!!

OP posts:
Gobbledispook · 03/10/2007 13:59

'However, speaking as someone from the otherside of teh coin to you - for most people their religion (whether it's Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Sikh or Rastafarian (sp)) isn't just a "one day a week" thing - it's part of their entire life. Their whole life is about being a "insert any religion" not just going to church/sunday school on a Sunday. Like it or not - Christianity is still the largest religion in the UK - so therefore more children are going to be partaking in Christian religious activities.'

I don't think anyone disagrees with that QoQ, but then religious schools should be something you buy into - i.e. they should be private NOT state funded.

I have no objection whatsoever to faith schools per se, just not ones that are state funded and are allowed to discriminate on the grounds of religion. How it is allowed is beyond me (and round here, it is the case, as it is for CD)

Blu · 03/10/2007 13:59

But GDG - the secular school won't exclude anyoine on the grounds of religion or no-religion!

Does anyone think that it is right that it is 'an impossibility' to found a secular school in this country?

Discussion about existing church schools aside? Which, except for parity, is a red heerring to the OP on this thread.