Attempt to establish a secular school - article in Grauniad

[UnquietDad]

This came up in the blasphemy thread but I think it deserves a discussion of its own.

here tis

Me, I'm quite happy for my children to go to school with the children of Jews, Christians, Muslims, Seventh-day Adventists, Apocalyptists, atheists, agnostics, don't-care-ists, Worshippers of the Great Spaghetti Monster and people who believe the Royal Family are lizards and we should all wear turquoise. But some of them don't want my child to go to school with theirs.

For the record I do not think all Christians are stupid, bigoted, delusional and war-mongering. I'm sure there are just as many stupid, bigoted, delusional and war-mongering people out there who don't have a faith. It's just that they don't have disproportionate control over our children's state education system. Re-read my very first post here, which sets out very clearly what I want to happen.

agree there shouldn't be any reason why a school without an act of daily worship should be illegal.

What is the legal impossibility?

but surely if all schools were good and you didn't have "poor" and "outstanding" schools in the same town - then the problem of not being "selected" for the "good" Church school because of your (lack of) Religious beliefs wouldn't be an issue - as they you'd be happy for your children to go to the "non" faith school and all us happy clappy Christians could have our children educated at an equally good school which has more of a slant on Christianity.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that if ALL schools were good then "which school should I send my child to" would't be an issue. That's got nothing to do with whether it's faith school or not!

I'm glad to hear that UQD because I think a number of those with a faith posting on here and indeed on Mn are in full agreement about the need to make state provision secular, and the ridiculous situation of this school not being allowed to proceed with its plans.

no, QoQ that isn't the point.
many people want their child to go to their local school, e.g. in rural communities.
many people don't want children to be segregated on the grounds of religion. I hate it tbh.

Caroline, the Grauniad article doesn't clarify but I'd assume that the law in question is either the 1870 Act, or the 1944 Act, both Education.

Sorry 'Queen of Q' but the local CofE Secondary here is extremely discriminatory. You have no chance of a place unless church attendance of at least 3 times per month can be proved through the signing of a register at church. This school is the best performing in the area and indeed the county. The performance is due to its intake of motivated pupils of motivated parents - ie those who suddenly start going to church when their child is in year 3. It doesn't matter why the school first started performing well, it has now begun to be a self-fulfilling prophecy; if it seen to be the best then the aspirational parents want their kids to go there. It has a considerably lower % of kids on free meals than the county average. Selection by the back door etc etc.
It is outrageous that there should be such discrimination going on. The churches will,of course, never admit to any of this because the admissions criteria are keeping up their attendance roll.

'But GDG - the secular school won't exclude anyoine on the grounds of religion or no-religion! '

No, I know Blu - sorry, I'm being a bit garbled!
I don't know why it's impossible.

I've not read the article (so why am I posting, who knows!) - how would it be different to the non-religious state schools we have now - like the ones my children go to where different religions are taught and celebrated?

QoQ - I see what you are trying to say.

But first of all, I don't agree with segregation dependent on something I don't believe in - regardless of the quality of the school.

And secondly, I agree with you that there should be a process by which all schools are made "good" - but given that we can't wave a magic wand and make it happen what should this process involve? Wouldn't it involve a bit of "mixing-up" of the school populations?

You don't raise standards in "poor" schools without some genuine social engineering (a concept with which I'm not entirely happy), but that would involve people who've chosen to send their children to one school now choosing to send them to another.

'but surely if all schools were good and you didn't have "poor" and "outstanding" schools in the same town - then the problem of not being "selected" for the "good" Church school because of your (lack of) Religious beliefs wouldn't be an issue - as they you'd be happy for your children to go to the "non" faith school and all us happy clappy Christians could have our children educated at an equally good school which has more of a slant on Christianity'

No, for me, that's just not the point. My children go to a non-church school and it's at teh top of the league table so I'm not, personally, upset - it hasn't had a detrimental affect on me but I don't agree with it in principle and it does affect other people.

"but then religious schools should be something you buy into - i.e. they should be private NOT state funded"

oh so we should be discriminated against by NOT having the option of a "church" school to send our children to? We have about 12/13 (that I can think of straight away) infant/primary schools in our town. 3 of them are "church" schools - 2 CoE and 1 Catholic. Only one of those church schools regularly comes at the "top" of parents choices for schools. The Catholic school was (until very recently) a terrible school - it's now "ok", the other CoE school is average. The other 10 infant/primary schools range from satisfactory to outstanding.

If you abolished the church schools and turned them into secular state schools then there would be very little difference (if any) in the number of people not getting places at the schools they wanted - so you would still end up with parents upset at their children being at poor schools!

Why would you be discriminated against by not having the option of a "church" school to send your children to?

Are people who believe in leprechauns discriminated against by not having the Church Of The Pot Of Gold in their catchment?

You see, this is what I mean by the "all about me" thing - I find it so frustrating that religious people can't see beyond the end of the pew on this. If schools did not select on the basis of faith, nobody would be discriminated against.

I think that the legal impossibility lies in the fact that we don't have a secular state (such as France does). ergo the state cannot constutionally support secular schools.

"many people want their child to go to their local school, e.g. in rural communities. "

fine - so abolish giving parents a "choice" in the school their child goes to and go back to catchment areas as the main criteria (which isn't for many areas even for NON religious schools........hey perhaps I should kick up a fuss because "Pupils who have a Statement of Special Educational Need or children who are in public care." are first in the pecking order for school places??? - JOKE!).

You'd then get a better "mixing" of pupils/parents in schools as for a lot of areas - (larger towns/cities probably a little different) the "natural" mix of the local catchment area is usually quite good.

QoQ - sorry but that's all 'arse about face'. Nobody is discriminated against, as UQD says!

As I said earlier, it's not about people being upset about their school allocation - I guess that's always going to happen - but at least people haven't been discriminated against on the grounds of what they believe.

You wouldn't be able to discriminate on any other grounds - race, political beliefs etc - so why is it allowed for religious beliefs? In principle, it is just wrong.

I'd actually agree with you on that, QueenOfQuotes! "Choice" is a daft illusion anyway.

Was just about to crash onto the thread to make a point - but uqd just made it better than I could have.

Another benefit of schools being secular is that you will no longer be at the whim of Governors or (here in Scotland) Head Teachers. There is such variation in the interpretation of the requirement for regular acts of worship that some state school (non-faith schools) do none save maybe at Christmas, and some do loads.

My old primary school (v rural area) recently had to go CofE because of falling roll: becoming a church school meant it received extra funding (apparently - I have no figures on this just what my mum told me) and a guarantee that it could not be closed. Bad enough for a few kids to have to pretend to believe to get into the school they want - but for a whole school to have to do it is just silly.

aaargghhh! uqd! will you stop generalising about religious people! all religious people do not act/think/feel the same way! it's so intolerant...

QofQ - You would have thought that a cluster of several good schools would stop the nonsense of pretending to be religious. However, here in Harpenden there are three excellent state high schools. Last year Roundwood Park beat most of the local independent schools in the A level league tables and it is genuinely regarded as an excellent school. Sir John Lawes is very similar. St George's is a school with a Christian ethos and selects pupils with a positive letter from the priest of vicar (and being VA operates its own selection process). Results-wise it is very similar to the other two but the parents here go absolutely mad for this school. I have spent years trying to work out why and I think it is because they play Lacrosse and have a posh-looking uniform and the headmaster behaves like they are an independent school. It attracts all the "ghastlies" which is really pretty funny.

fine lets go back to just catchment areas then.........

and it IS discriminatory if you are taking away the option of my child being able to be taught in a school with a broadly Christian ethos and daily act of worship. A NON Christian child has the option to "sit out" of those if the parents request it.

For what it's worth this is the admissions criteria for the (oustanding) CoE school that DS1 attends, and same criteria for the average CoE school in town.

Following the allocation of places to pupils who have a statement of special educational needs which names the school as appropriate provision, when there are more applications for places than there are places available, priority will be given in the following order:

(i) Children in public care.
(ii) Pupils with an older brother or sister continuing at the school or the linked junior school at the time of admission of the younger child.
(iii) Pupils who live closer to the preferred school than any other school.
(iv) Other pupils.

If the admission number is exceeded within criterion (iii) priority will be given to those who live furthest from the nearest alternative school. If the admission number is exceeded within any other criterion priority will be given to those who live closest to the school.

This is the criteria for the (poor) Catholic infant school

In accordance with DfSE Code of Practice, which recommends ?looked after children? to be given top priority, the Governing Body will give preference over each criteria for children in public care.

1. Baptised Catholic children of practising Catholic families in the parishes.
2. Baptised Catholic children of Catholic families in the parishes.
3. Baptised Catholic children of Catholic families outside the catchment area, supported by their priest.
4. Baptised Catholic children of Catholic families who are moving into the area, supported by their priest.
5. Baptised Catholic children in the catchment area.
6. Siblings of children already at the school
7. Baptised Christian children of other denominations whose parent specifically wish a Catholic education for their child and are supported by their own minister/priest.
8. Baptised Christian children of other denominations whose parents wish a Catholic education for their child.
9. Unbaptised children of Catholic homes whose parents wish a Catholic education for their child.
10. Unbaptised children of Christian homes whose parents wish a Catholic education for their child.
11. Children of other faith traditions whose parents wish a Catholic education for their child.

(madness if you ask me!)

"I'd actually agree with you on that, QueenOfQuotes! "Choice" is a daft illusion anyway."

See - I'm not always totally intolerable

'and it IS discriminatory if you are taking away the option of my child being able to be taught in a school with a broadly Christian ethos and daily act of worship. A NON Christian child has the option to "sit out" of those if the parents request it.'

Oh, you have an option?! See therein lies the difference! You can opt or opt out, non religious families have NO CHOICE!!!!!

i htink that we shodul eb like france

when choosing a school I mean - round here non-religious children do not get into the RC or CofE schools.