Winchester College attrition

[BucklandBeacon]

Can anyone shed light on the numbers and circumstances of boys being 'asked' to leave Winchester at 16? I've seen and heard oblique references to this- and to other schools taking former Winchester boys for sixth form- but it's a hard issue to pin down. DS has offers from more than one school and we are trying to make sense of the choices ahead....

Div etc very nice to have(other schools actually do similar but just get on with it )but if Oxbridge numbers drop year on year then parents of course will ask questions,any truth in the anecdote that numbers of foreign children rising at Win?

The Oxbridge thing will be worrying Winchester more than anyone I would imagine. I have met the newish headmaster of Winchester (albeit briefly) and he was very impressive. He did not come across as one to sit on his laurels and allow the place to decline.

I think the number of overseas pupils is on the rise at every independent boarding school. The reality is that there are more places than there are children in this country whose parents can afford c.£40,000 a year per child. Some international students can be a good thing, but I think the problem is that fees are pitched at what the international market will bear, which prices out more and more home students. A lot of independent schools near us seem to have large numbers of European kids who come for a year to improve their English. It is a convenient way of filling empty beds, but it can be quite disruptive for children staying all the way through. I don't think the big name schools like Winchester do that, so the international kids are properly integrated into the community for the long haul.

As many international kids come from countries will low taxation and don't have parents contributing to the teachers pension scheme etc, I think there is a strong argument for encouraging independent schools to charge higher fees to kids who are not permanently resident in the UK. It might help keep prices down for kids who actually live here. That is a whole different thread though.

The number of overseas pupils is not on the rise at every independent boarding school,but numbers on the increase at Win would tie in with what a Prep Head told me last year that he was finding it harder and harder to find uk parents who were willing to forgive the very poor facilities .other schools do something similar to div,get as good or better academic results and have far better facilities ..He and others mentioned the house facilities and the science labs in particular..when we were visiting a couple of years ago everything looked like it belonged in the 1950s at best..

So which schools did the Prep Head say that parents favoured over Winchester?

I have never been wild about the arms race for the best facilities, as it just drives fees up and there is something faintly ridiculous about schools having better facilities than universities and professional training grounds.

Just booked back at your previous comments. The number of talks the Y12 boy had attended may have had more to do with the fact he was in the L6th than anything else.

Talks at Eton are almost always open to all blocks,so doesnt matter if a boy is in F block or B block,all boys are treated equally,if that isnt the case at Win...
Its not a question of an arms race in facilities,when you still have dorms with ten or twelve boys when you are doing gcses,when your only private space is a cubicle with a curtain(mugging hall?),when some of the science labs look like marie curie might appear at any minute..then not surprisingly more and more parents ask where exactly the fees are going..if you bang on and on about how academic you are but other schools have better academic results and haven't seen a drop in Oxbridge places then it really shouldnt come as a surprise that questions are asked..

I have no idea what is the case at Winchester. In general, most schools encourage older pupils to attend more evening lectures. And as they approach university admissions they get a clearer idea of what interests them etc. There are many aspects of school life other than the lectures that are put on in the evenings, with most independent boarding schools having more on offer than a pupil can ever partake in.

If the answer to my previous question is Eton then I think Winchester has less to worry about than if the answer is Canford of Lord Wandsworth.

DS left 6 years ago now. Warning letters went out to any boy who was not on track to meet the minimum level for GCSEs. As the school is academically selective, it is not unreasonable to expect this level of minimum achievement. Exceptions were made for boys who experienced health problems or major family problems. His house didn’t “loose” anyone, but 5 left overall.

The thing is, all of the boys (excepting those with health or family problems) should be able to achieve this with little effort. If they are not, they have grown apart from what the school provides and will likely be better off at another school. In DS’s year one went to Westminster as a day boy. It would be far worse for the school to ignore the issue and leave the boy to flounder through pre-U’s.

The school works very well for the curious, academically minded boy. It allows a huge amount of freedom in study, which meant my son found it a much smaller step up than most when he arrived at Oxford. It is not the best place for all boys, even all intelligent boys if they are not self-managing by 16.

My DS loved the school, which gave him the bases to achieve a lot at school and after. It suited him. A different child would have got more out of other schools, even if the change was at 16. I don’t think a small percentage of change at this age is a negative thing.

"I think the number of overseas pupils is on the rise at every independent boarding school."

I don't think it is at every independent boarding school, Genevieva - not as far as Eton is concerned which has a stated policy of taking "no more than 10% of foreign boys so as to maintain its status as an English boarding school for boys".

". . .when you still have dorms with ten or twelve boys when you are doing gcses,when your only private space is a cubicle with a curtain. . ."

Which reminds me of a certain No.1 WinColl cheerleader who argues pathetically that living in dorms is much preferred and better than having your own bedroom. This, when we're talking about full-blooded teenage boys in the 21st century!

So it's true that WinColl does cull its weaker boys then? I take a very dim view of schools, particularly very selective ones, doing that. Especially when on national results day in August they emerge and tell the world how very good we are with 99.5% of our students scoring A*/A and all other cock and bull stories, etc. There's one school like that in my backyard, supposedly the top state school in the country - top as in the apex of the pyramid!

But the way I see it is that these culling schools are more concerned about their own image than the education/welfare of their "weaker" pupils. Didn't they subject these unfortunate pupils to some very vigorous tests/exams and in WinColl's case, marathon interviews just a few short years prior and concluded these pupils were good enough to be admitted to their school(s)?

What happened then? These kids were on your watch from Day One for you now to deem it necessary to get rid of them. It is your failure rather than the kids' if you'd asked me. I say, shame on you!

I was just gong to say similar. In my experience most of the students who leave indi boarding do so because they have grown out of the structure, rules and ‘guidance’ that appealed at 13 and seek more independence, freedom, comparative anonymity of a big sixth form college. As well as preferring co Ed and a wider social circle.

Why do MN threads about Winchester or Eton always descend into mud slinging matches like this?

Can't we just accept (as seems to be a given when questions are asked about other schools) that different children suit different schools? Is it because there's an assumption that someone applying to Winchester will also be applying to Eton (or vice versa)? If so, I think this is often not the case and the derailing of threads asking about one school with posts about how the other is 'better' are unhelpful and offputting.

It is brilliant that you are so happy with your son's school and by all means sing its praises loudly when someone asks about it. But why post negative comments when someone asks about a different school that you have no first hand experience of?

I agree with you Notmynom! Especially when talking about independent schools. Most people have no choice over where their child will go to school, so being able to compare and contrast two schools of this calibre is completely impossible and reading arguments about which one is better in a thread that is meant to be solely about one probably comes across as distasteful.

Read my post properly, i.e. assuming you can read and comprehend it!

Hope it's not your kid being thrown out at the most inconvenient of times right before (s)he takes the GCSEs. My post in no way says it's a WinColl vs Eton argument - not as far as culling is concerned. The 'E' word was never used in this context - unless, which I suspect, you're seeing double! If any school was indicated, it was in fact a state school in my backyard which I was complaining about.

In any case, my original argument is as good and solid as any other. New parents thinking of applying to these schools have a right to know beforehand what these schools are all about before they commit themselves as they're all too easily swept up by the glossy prospectuses and their funky websites. I can't thank the OP enough for bringing this to my attention and I thought I knew all about WinColl.

Goodness Peternas what an unnecessarily rude response, which absolutely exemplifies the point I was making.

Your post has a reference to Eton in its second line and then goes on to quote an earlier post criticising Winchester's shared dorms compared to Eton's solo rooms. Next we get your 'dim view' of schools that cull at 6th form in which you include Winchester but as you point out don't mention Eton. Since you have up to that point been discussing Eton, the implication is that it is not therefore one of the schools which does this (although it too has minimum entry criteria for 6th form according to a previous post from an Eton parent).

Perhaps I have misunderstood and you have a child in each school which would explain your belief that you 'know all about WinColl' but if not then I still fail to see how your post contributes to the discussion at hand (or could possibly help a new parent wanting to know more about the school - of which I am one).

It is very odd that this happens so frequently on Eton and Winchester threads - they are entirely separate and very different schools and it really should be possible to discuss one without reference to the other.

Like I said, Notmynom, read my post properly. That message sent 2 minutes after midnight (i.e. at the beginning of this morning) was addressing 3 issues. I could have, of course, posted three different messages one after another - like some people do - but that would be stupid.

Instead, I started with a quotation in italics addressing someone who claimed that "the number of overseas pupils is on the rise at every independent boarding school". Well, I know this is not true in the case of Eton and this is the only time that Eton was named as evidence to refute the claim - nothing to do whatsoever with WinColl or anyone else. It's just a fact that Eton has up to 10% of foreign boys at any one time and no more, now, before or in future.

The second issue I addressed was to do with boarding houses, dorms vs single bedrooms and again I preceded my argument with a quotation in italics by somebody else. Specifically it was to do with WinColl's cramped dorms (10 ~ 12 ?) which by anybody's language is ridiculous considering parents are asked to pay just as much money as other more spacious boarding schools. Again, Eton was not specifically mentioned though everyone knows that the Windsor school is known for its generosity. And I'm not sure, and I genuinely don't know, if there are other boarding schools in the UK or elsewhere who are possibly just as generous. Do you?

And yes, the second half of that particular posting was in dealing with the gist of this thread which you seem to have a problem - specifically written to criticise WinColl and any other school(s) that practises culling. Was there anything that I said there that was untrue and a lie? Or do you only want to report on the good and juicy sides of a school and pretend the adverse sides don't exist and simply bury your head in the sands? Don't you think new parents would also want to know about the adverse sides together with the good before making a final decision?

Let's just get something straight in the first instance. What is a school? It is an institution to educate pupils. No, I've not much qualms in any school selecting from the onset the type of pupils it wants to educate. But once the pupils are admitted, I expect the school to do its job by educating them. Needless to say, some pupils are brighter than others and it's the school's job and duty to do its best for each and every pupil in their charge - whatever their potentials.

But instead, we now learn that schools like WinColl eradicate its weakest pupils in the middle of nowhere so that it can sit back and look pretty and announces to the world, "Look - how good and academic we are! A large chunk of our pupils go to Oxbridge and similarly pursuing Medicine at top medical schools!" Blah, blah, blah!

No apologies for singling out WinColl here for this offence as this is the title of this thread!

"Perhaps I have misunderstood and you have a child in each school which would explain your belief that you 'know all about WinColl' but if not then I still fail to see how your post contributes to the discussion at hand (or could possibly help a new parent wanting to know more about the school - of which I am one).. .It is very odd that this happens so frequently on Eton and Winchester threads - they are entirely separate and very different schools and it really should be possible to discuss one without reference to the other."

And no, I don't have a child ever at WinColl; neither have I ever visited Winchester.

But I do know "my school" quite thoroughly. As a matter of fact, I've been dealing with Eton-related business the whole of this morning until now, thus this delayed response. But knowing Eton is more than enough for me to know most of WinColl.

You obviously do not know much of WinColl yourself or that Eton was actually founded in the image of WinColl some 58 years after WinColl's founding. In fact, the first Eton pupils and teachers were "nicked" from WinColl by Henry VI in the mid-15th century. Both schools were founded to educate the poor (and maybe the weak, if it's of any interest to you?) and both schools have much, much, much in common even till today as opposed to they being entirely separate and very different schools as you profess.

In my two decades involvement with Eton, I've never known the school ejecting any of its pupils in the middle of nowhere unless it's for some family or private reasons or some serious misdemeanour e.g. drugs or unapproved political activities, etc.

Now, I'm not here to give a history lesson but to justify why I take a "dim view" in schools culling their weak especially so in the case of WinColl.

May I ask, in good faith, what do you mean by ejecting pupils in the middle of nowhere? I have never heard of any school ejecting pupils shortly before they take their GCSEs if that is what you mean.

There was a legal case regarding a state grammar school that attempted to remove AS pupils before the A2 year and the school lost and was forced to amend its policy for the very reason you describe, so I am not sure it would be legal to remove a child for academic underperformance when they are half way through a course. The break between Y11 and Y12 is a natural one between key stages and not in the middle of nowhere. I expect Eton also has a small amount of attrition at this stage. Most independent schools have minimum GCSE grades for entry into sixth form and even state sixth forms have minimum grades for particular subjects on the grounds that they are a necessary basis for going on to study that subject at a higher level.

Peternas - by your own admission you have not even visited Winchester. Why not take your two decades of involvement with Eton over to a thread about Eton where it will be useful instead of derailing this one (and insulting the intelligence of those of us posting here out of genuine interest)?

Genevieva - I agree almost all schools have a minimum criteria for entry to 6th form (and whilst Paternas has not addressed it another poster has said this is the case at Eton too). It is not the fact that they have a minimum that interests me but more how many fail to meet it, which one would hope is a small number in these types of schools.

Genevieve, just do the simplest of things by googling Winchester College wiki and very quickly it tells you it's a school for boys aged 13~18!

Better still, go to WinColl's own website and it proudly tells you Celebrating the Individual.

Both statements are lies (if you'd asked me) as we now know.

By "ejecting pupils in the middle of nowhere" means pupils being thrown out (aged 16) and barred from finishing their last two years in school hence not fulfilling their contract in preparing these unfortunate kids for university entrance as these schools are meant to do.

Yes, indeed, St Olave's grammar school in Orpington was recently found to have acted illegally by doing exactly just that - culling weak students. You probably don't believe this but I have a very close relative who went to St Olave's many moons ago and both of us were "over the moon", so to speak, when the illegal judgment was announced. I was surprised to learn the St Olave's Head who was responsible for the culling policy lives in my part of the world and the last time I heard of him (from the local papers) is that he was looking for a job!

I hope more affected parents, both state and indie, will take similar legal actions against culling schools.

I acknowledge Form Six entry from exterior schools come under different rules and I have no problems with that.

Why start an Eton thread when nobody has asked for one, Notmynom?
Strange that you should mention insulting the intelligence of people as you evidently have failed to grasp the substance of my very detailed postings written in plain simple English.

This is not entirely relevant to this thread but I thought it worth pointing out that my DS at Wincoll was in a dorm of 3 and 4 during his first year and has had a single room ever since second year. Boys at Wincoll are not put exclusively in large dorms of 10-12 throughout their time at the school.

Peternas - as you continue to be so unecessarily offensive I do not intend to waste my time replying to you further.

Abear - thank you for clarifying, my understanding was that dorm sizes vary depending on house and boys age. We like the idea of sharing and wouldn't have wanted DS to have a solo room in his first year anyway.

NotmyNom yes that is my thinking too, it helped keep homesickness at bay and I also agree that this differs between houses which can be a benefit as not everyone wants the same thing. In DS house some boys did continue to share in second and third year because they wanted to. DS got his own room earlier on because not all older boys wanted a single room.

But you don't even recognise your own rudeness, Notmynom.

And I think, abear, your post is just as relevant as any other. Thanks for enlightening us about the WinColl boarding situation. New parents will certainly be interested to know about this. The inference of your posting is that having your own private space is still preferred to a dorm - no matter how many in it; 2, 3, 10 or 12? This is perfectly natural; ask any 5~8 year-old siblings if they would prefer sleeping in one big room together or in a single room each where they can keep their own belongings etc. and you'll have your answer.

Don't forget we're talking about a full-blown boarding environment here for 13 to 18-year-olds where boys meet each other and are together for 14 or more hours each day, everyday including weekends with absolutely no privacy at all. Surely, the last thing they want is to also go to bed together at night!

But it is quite tedious in arguing with people who are arguing the ridiculous just for the sake of arguing...

Goodness me, it gets so personal, doesn't it. Any minute now someone will mention Harrow and all hell break loose.
I'm interested in the OP's question. I think the collective wisdom is that;
a) a small number of boys leave Winchester after GCSE, at the natural break point, but generally because they want a different experience in later adolescence than they had when much younger, and
b) this is not unusual especially in single sex boarding schools.
Tribal rivalries aside, is that about right?

It sounds about right to me - well done!