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Winchester College attrition

86 replies

BucklandBeacon · 10/02/2020 16:04

Can anyone shed light on the numbers and circumstances of boys being 'asked' to leave Winchester at 16? I've seen and heard oblique references to this- and to other schools taking former Winchester boys for sixth form- but it's a hard issue to pin down. DS has offers from more than one school and we are trying to make sense of the choices ahead....

OP posts:
BubblesBuddy · 12/02/2020 23:16

Certainly a few girls I have known, who live in London, will leave boarding schools in order to attend 6th forms nearer to home. They grow out of leafy boarding schools and prefer to have the freedoms that living at home provide. I would think some boys would feel the same about their boarding schools. They simply might prefer a day school and live at home. Those who don’t make the grade, will just say they wanted to leave.

Wincollparent · 13/02/2020 05:42

Had DS there who left fairly recently after the change in headmaster.
Amazing school with mainly (nothing is 100% ) incredible staff and ethos. Housemaster was wonderful. (I still remain hyperbolic about the place and how the boys from it turn out). During my DS’ time max 1 to 2 left per house (from year 9 until GCSEs). Usually because the school was n’t a good fit for them and they did n’t enjoy what the school had to offer academically and the work it entailed. Not all for example want to spend so much time a week on Div which has no end result in the currency of GCSEs and A level equivalent.
However the school and housemaster really tried with the boys I know who did leave, providing lots of opportunities including extracurricular to help them find a niche that they enjoyed.

I know from multiple examples that boys don”t get encouraged to leave just because of underperforming in public exams and the school continues to support boys who are not fulfilling potential for various reasons including pastoral issues. There are also a fair number of very bright boys with dyslexia etc at Winchester whose exam grades especially in some subjects will never reflect their abilities but they get a lot out of the school and therefore stay. I hope that is n’t changing with the newish headmaster.
The school is actually very liberal rule wise but there are obvious constraints to protect the students especially the younger boys in a boarding school environment so some will want to change because of that I presume, especially if they crave London style living.
Also parents may not want to continue paying the full boarding fees if their DS is n’t getting extra from boarding, the boys do have to be proactive to make the most of what is on offer, and some teenagers won’t be, even with lots of encouragement from the staff.

Never heard of change to state sixth form simply to improve chances of Oxbridge, that would be just stupid and naive.

newtothis15 · 13/02/2020 07:16

How many boys are interviewed at Winchester for how many places - does anybody know?

nolanscrack · 13/02/2020 12:02

Everyone at Eton gets their own room from day 1,rather different at WC .

PrayingandHoping · 13/02/2020 12:29

@nolanscrack that's interesting never heard that. But as someone who boarded themselves from 13-18 I would not actually say that's a good thing. Yes for 6th form but not for younger children when they first join

Globaliser · 13/02/2020 15:44

Selective schools in the independent and maintained sectors take the brightest pupils, give them a good education, and they get places at the best universities. No one “buys” advantage. The brightest children go the most successful schools who admit them on merit. Nothing demonstrates better the failure of the disastrous comprehensive school experiment than the need for Oxbridge admissions tutors to lower their standards to admit students who wouldn’t otherwise make the grade.

Lotty32 · 13/02/2020 16:15

At WC all dependent which house you are in (super important to chose the right house/house master) my DS is in a 12 bed dorm which seems great (he needs ear plugs though!)
Think much better for the boys to be in a dorm of whatever size as otherwise could be super lonely

Lemonsole · 13/02/2020 16:43

Oxbridge Admissions tutors do not lower standards for state-educated students. That is fact. Also, the "brightest and best" in selective private schools are only the brightest and best out of the small subset of kids whose parents can afford £35k + for fees out of their taxed income. That's quite a small subset.

BucklandBeacon · 14/02/2020 20:04

Thank you Wincollparent for such a considered response. What prompted my original question was references I've heard elsewhere concerning boys being asked to leave Winchester at 16 and having to find places at other schools due to not meeting academic expectations. I heard this again from the Head of one of the receiving schools (although to be fair he didn't name Winchester, all the prospective parents filled in the blanks), from a boy who told me he switched preferences at 11th hour because he worried about bring sacked by Winchester, and from a friend who seemed to consider the attrition at 16 common knowledge. So, I understand some boys and parents decide to make different choices for 6th form; what I'd really like to pin down is whether this course of action is often forced upon them?

OP posts:
Malmontar · 14/02/2020 21:04

Isn't that what happens at most schools though? If you don't get the GCSE grades you don't move to the sixth form. And besides, would you really want that route for a not so academic child?

PrayingandHoping · 14/02/2020 21:15

Yes def @Malmontar. My school would only let u continue on to a level if u got a certain amount of top grades at gcse

BubblesBuddy · 15/02/2020 08:50

It might not just be about results though. Boys might not wish to continue with that way of life. They might prefer a London day school. They might find being surrounded by so many ultra bright DC isn’t for them. They might prefer somewhere a bit less stellar. It’s difficult to choose the perfect fit when pre testing is done when the boys are very young. They change. Schools frequently don’t and then the fit becomes poor. It’s ok to leave any school if it’s no longer the best fit for DC. It doesn’t mean anything is wrong with either of them.

Notmynom · 15/02/2020 11:02

I'd be slightly wary of what the schools say about each other. A couple of the teachers who interviewed our DS and had asked him which other schools he'd applied to came and spoke to us afterwards to tell us why the other schools wouldn't be right for him. Interesting but I suspect mainly motivated by a desire to get us to choose their school.

sunshinesupermum · 15/02/2020 11:16

It's been the same for as long as I can remember with high achieving schools - if you are not expected to get the grades, for whatever reason) then you will be encouraged to leave after GCSEs.

However both DDs changed their (London day schools) at 16 - one because although she got the grades to go into 6th form she wanted a different, less hothouse environment. She sat her A Levels at a boys day school which admitted girls into the 6th form and went on to take her degree at Trinity College Dublin, as good a university as you could wish for. Oxbridge isn't for everyone!

Wincollparent · 15/02/2020 15:52

BucklandBeacon
My answer to your question was a bit rambling but was this part
I know from multiple examples that boys don”t get encouraged to leave just because of underperforming in public exams and the school continues to support boys who are not fulfilling potential for various reasons including pastoral issues. There are also a fair number of very bright boys with dyslexia etc at Winchester whose exam grades especially in some subjects will never reflect their abilities but they get a lot out of the school and therefore stay. I hope that is n’t changing with the newish headmaster.

The short answer is ‘no I don’t think so purely on grades’. At least until recently there were boys with pretty average or variable GCSE grades who stayed for sixth form. Not all of them had extenuating circumstances.

All the reasons cited above including those from BubblesBuddy are possible though for the few who do leave and sometimes difficult to predict. Sometimes parents or boys don’t want to admit financial reasons which affect their perception of benefit to cost ratio.

Plus of course there are examples of boys leaving for poor behaviour despite multiple sanctions or not suited to the self organisation required for boarding (that was the case of one off the scale bright boy who left in the first year and ended up at the sixth form of a very academic day school.

Needmoresleep · 17/02/2020 14:01

Our observation is that there is far more movement with girls than with boys, both because by sixteen girls can feel that an all girls school is too restrictive (my DNieces wanted to but were not allowed to leave their rather dull but posh home counties girls boarding precisely because their parents wanted them in a secure, safe environment) and because more boys schools offer co-ed sixth forms.

That said there is always a small amount of movement amongst the boys schools (and from state to private and vice versa.) Sometimes it is about fit. DD moved from a London independent co-ed to an independent boys school that took girls in the sixth form, both for an easier journey, but also because she was a bit "meh" about the first school. Looking back almost her entire friendship group at the first school gained Oxbridge places, she did not. She loved the second school and she would 100% make the move again.

Of the movement around Winchester, Eton, St Pauls and Westminster, and we have seen some, though none down to academic performance. There may be a fall off in academic achievement but this is usually triggered by some form of breakdown in the relationship with the school, often behavioural, perhaps disengagement, and one which seems to have been down to conflict due to a school not meeting high parental demands expectations. When something has gone wrong which does not impact on academic potential, schools appear to work together to facilitate a fresh start. Moves to state, whatever the parents say, are often precipitated by behaviour, drugs being the most likely. Boarding schools, in particular, fear contagion.

I don't think we ever saw anyone being asked to leave Westminster solely on academic performance grounds. There was usually something else and the numbers were small. I would assume Winchester is similar.

BasiliskStare · 18/02/2020 04:54

I would say @BucklandBeacon ( and to anyone interested ) why not just ring the admissions department at Winchester and ask them what their requirements are to go on to 6th form. ( I mean by this the academic requirements )

BubblesBuddy · 18/02/2020 08:09

I think most boarding girls start at 11, not 13. Therefore they are at their boarding schools for longer which can fuel a desire to leave. Boys tend to stay put perhaps because they will only be at senior school for 5 years, not 7.

I expect there is some flexibility regarding entering the 6th form for existing pupils. Lots of other things would be considered. Sport and music ability is often considered for existing pupils for example. So although it might be stated that there is an academic requirement, there is also discretion.

Needmoresleep · 18/02/2020 09:36

Bubbles, I dont think you are correct. London girls who board often wait until 13. There are plenty of day co-ed preps that go up to 13, and many parents want them to have that extra time at home.

This may be different for those from overseas or who live in areas with few facilities.

Our observation is that girls move for sixth form because boys schools like Westminster offer so much more, plus experience of co-ed provides a good preparation for University. Also many girl boarders seem to like to return to London, including to girls schools as by that stage they have outgrown their boarding schools. Plus for the better sports people, actors and musicians there are a lot more opportunities in London as compared to what is on offer even in the best schools.

Prehapsso · 18/02/2020 15:49

Lotty32 my DS is one of the lucky Oxbridge offer holders from Symonds for 2020 entry. At a recent open evening they were asked by a WinColl mum about Oxbridge opportunities improving upon moving into the state sector. Unfortunately the WinColl mum then proceeded to rant about standards falling because more disadvantaged applicants were receiving offers, not realising that my DS falls into that category. They made a bit of a fool of themselves and were thoroughly unpleasant. Symonds received 54 Oxbridge offers this year. Their Twitter feed lists which school the DC attended for their GCSEs. Boys were in a distinct minority and I think only 3 were originally from the private sector & all 3 were girls. Perhaps the WinColl parents need to rethink their tactics.

HuaShan · 18/02/2020 15:51

@Lotty32 as sandybayley says it is not accurate to say that private school kids are 'massively disadvantaged' in Oxbridge admissions - both Oxford and Cambridge provide very detailed breakdowns of admissions statistics which show a rise in the number of state school applicants - hence a rise in the numbers admitted because more talented people are applying The admissions process is very rigorous and includes admissions tests and multiple interviews. The proportion of state school admissions has risen about 2% each year for Oxford whilst applications for certain subjects have risen by 10%

Prehapsso · 18/02/2020 15:53

Globaliser I may have misunderstood your post, but do you realise that Oxbridge doesn't actually reduce its offers for state school pupils? They have to achieve exactly the same high standard as an applicant from WinColl or Eton.

okiedokieme · 18/02/2020 15:54

Changing school at 16 doesn't make a difference as it's the school you take GCSEs in that counts as state/private. The reason kids change at 16 is usually variety of a levels and that they didn't like the school their parent dumped them at boarding

HuaShan · 18/02/2020 16:03

Just to add my weight to Prehapsso's post - my ds is also a very fortunate Oxford offer holder but then he achieved 12 A* at GCSE's and scored in the top 100 scorers of the 1800 dc who took the admissions test. His offer is the standard offer. Its damaging to suggest state school candidates get lower offers. The only contextual data I know of is when GCSE's are compared to the school's average GCSE attainment and that is just one of the pieces of information used to decide if a dc is called to interview. You can get pretty detailed information on how Oxford weigh this (look at, for example, Maths and Physics admission cycle feedback)

CONFUSEDad · 08/03/2020 20:42

DS is at Wincoll and I heard from him that after gcse mocks some boys (and parents) received letters of warning indicating the boy is at risk of not getting promoted (may miss min-grades).

FWIW, the grade requirements are not crazy at all. Our local day independent school and a grammar i know have exactly the same (or higher) and send about 5 to Oxbridge in a good year (just for context). Oxbridge offers at Wincoll have fallen sharply over the last three years (not that i care too much). I think it is just more competitive generally and Wincoll is more geared to lateral thinking education than exam-think-past papers. Though i hear a bit of panic has set in after last years' poor showing at Oxbridge as parents are asking questions. For us the depth of real education at Wincoll is amazing (Div. is epic). I wouldn't give that up for anything.

per DS, over last couple of years, 5-7 boys left after gcses (c.125-130 cohort); however, very rarely folks leave purely for aca.

Actually, I was looking through Wincoll threads to check if someone talked about\leaving due to drug/drink problem. Some parents pulled out their DS a few months ago (per DS) after finding the problem themselves. We probed a bit and he mentioned that his prep-school friend in another house is stuggling to keep up the peer pressure on booz and some spiked vapes (forgot the chemical name) being delivered via dark web in unmarked packages. He claimed his house is not "that bad" .... DS is doing pretty well with grades, loves the school, the boys and the HM to bits and never says anything negative about Wincoll, so we were on cloud9. We were a bit shocked and caught off-guard (to react with more questions without sounding too freaked out ). just getting prepped for next leave out and will probe further with HM and DS............ just wanted to share on the leaving reasons.

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