Is there any point tutoring for VR and NVR entrance exams?

[PickledOnion99]

Just that really.

DD's favoured secondary school selects mainly on the basis of VR and NVR (ISEB tests). It's not super-selective, so barring disasters, she should get in without any prepping.

But, we are wondering whether it's worth pushing it a bit in the hope of a scholarship. We can manage fine without, but a few £££ of the termly bill would certainly be nice.

She has done CATS at her current school and scored 127. Reading between various lines, it looks as if the new school dish academic scholarships out at around the 130 mark.

So, those of you who have attempted this feat, what do you reckon? Is it worth a try? I don't want to flog her to death (no way she'd let me anyway) but is it worth putting an hour or so a week in for the next few months?

Thanks in advance.

If you'd asked me, I'd say it's certainly worth it tutoring for VR and NVR especially the latter. I remember DD in her younger days (under 10) used to be confused and bewildered by the different odd shapes, patterns, etc that's found in the NVR test papers. I tutored her and calmly explained to her; even physically showed her by creating real models, shapes, patterns, etc and made her stand at different angles to look at the same object in order to explain the different shapes/patterns and she soon learnt and understood the questions being asked.

As for the VR, the obvious way to learn is to read lots of books, magazines, newspapers, etc and to practise loads of maths questions - mastering the times tables inside out aiming for speed, and accuracy, of course.

Thanks Peteneras.

They don't have a maths exam (which is a shame - she's great at maths!) so I wasn't going to touch that at all. But are you suggesting it might be helpful for NVR perhaps?

Yes, of course, PickledOnion99! The whole concept of the NVR can, and is based mainly on Maths. First things first; what is the NVR and why the NVR? As you know, NVR stands for 'Non Verbal Reasoning'. So, it's a reasoning test, i.e. to test the candidate's power of reasoning and hence his/her intelligence. And why "non verbal", you may ask? Well, for an intelligent person who, for example, doesn't speak English or understands very little English (because English isn't his/her first language) a Maths question written verbally in English like, e.g. 'Out of 27 apples on the table, 9 of them are green apples and the rest are red. What is the proportion of red apples expressed as a fraction on the table?'

All very confusing for an intelligent Chinese girl or a Hindu boy who doesn't speak English and (s)he might put '18' as an answer thinking 'what's the next step down between 27 and 9'?

But if the question is expressed as images (non verbal) in coloured form showing green and red apples with possible answer being (a) one-half (b) two-thirds (c) three-quarters (d) four-fifths; then the child would have no problems picking (b) as the answer.

The NVR thus is designed not to disadvantage a non-English speaker and still assesses the level of the candidate's intelligence. Many questions are hugely based on Maths and your DD will benefit with the NVR.

I’d say yes. We aren’t tutoring but going through books that the school uses. Bond does a teaching nvr book, which goes through what to look for. They are quite fun to do and so if she does a test or two a day, see how she gets on and whether she needs a tutor.

If you are aiming for a scholarship then you should tutor (either DIY or paid - whichever suits your circumstances better). All verbal and nonverbal have techniques with facilitate accuracy and speed. I am not sure they aren't things any parent could work out, so if you have the time and patience then DIY. But to assume your DD will be able to sit the exam with no prep, at least if she is coming from state school where there is no exposure to these tests, is a mistake in my view.

Don’t forget exam technique and familiarity of questions are important. So either DIY or tutor. Timing during the exams is also something many DC need to learn with new questions. They can spend too long puzzling over something. Then run out of time. Try and avoid this.

Thanks - this is all really helpful.

Bubbles - yes, I could really see timing being an issue for DD. She has no sense of urgency about anything. Ever. But, it looks like these tests are some sort of adaptive thing, and apparently speed isn't an issue for these: they just keep throwing out questions, adjusting the difficulty of each dependant on accuracy of the preceding answer until it works out your child's level, at which point the test is over. Does anyone know anything about these? Surely they must take speed into account somehow?

I always thought the whole point of reasoning type tests, was to assess innate ability, and display their ability to problem-solve novel situations, but parents seem to want to tutor for everything these days, and while I can understand why people are going to jump on the band wagon that has already left in full speed, I have never seen the point. We have never tutored at all for these, and both our kids have been fine. Our youngest sat her first entrance exam aged 6, with one days notice for a last minute turnaround on school choice, and achieved maximum scores. That has never changed, year on year she achieves the same high level of scores. Meanwhile, some of my friends’ kids, started off with low scores, and after tutoring for 11plus and such like, they were able to improve their scores by a few points. However, what does it really mean in the end? They might be able to learn the tricks and be told how to approach different scenarios, but it won’t be revealing what they were intended to reveal? Perhaps there is nothing that is tutor proof these days, and I’m a very small voice in an increasingly large crowd. Good luck with your daughter’s scholarship!

100% I would. You don’t need to pay but you need to work through all the different books from bond up to the harder ones, can’t remember which ones. Not fair to put them into an exam without any familiarisation.

Mumto2, I hear you! I'd really rather not do this. It would be much better if no one did, and we all just trusted the tests to do their job.

But, I've found out that a local prep school gives kids one lesson a week on how to pass these tests from the start of Year 5 onwards. So, assuming that this practice has any impact on scores (which is what my thread was getting at), I feel that I have to join the arms race or my child will be at a disadvantage.

If anyone can give me evidence that this practice has no impact, I would be thrilled to receive it!

Have you tried attempting an 11+ paper yourself without any tutoring and scoring above 85% for a 'secure pass'?. It's a bit stupid - sorry to be blunt - to think you can pass without any training aka tutoring. I would throw everything I can to even and upp the odds to pass!

Kids prep from Year 2 so I wouldn't underestimate the competition.

Hi CookieDoughKid - they've done CATS at school (and she scored highly) so she wouldn't be going in completely cold. And at the very least I'd get her a book of examples to have a flick through.

But, it's really not a very selective school, and critically, it's not in London!. Word on the street is that the test is only looking to de-select kids who would really struggle academically - those who are below average. So, I genuinely don't think that we need to do anything more to just get her in.

My bottom-line question is, does coaching on VR/NVR really improve scores? If so, how much coaching would we need to do to nudge her over the scholarship line?

As a secondary question, I'd be interested in views on whether (monetary value aside) a scholarship is worth having? Does it open up enrichment activities once you're in, or just load extra pressure on?

Bottom line, coaching for any skill will improve you pass the point you are at now. Period. The question is, is where your dd at passable? If not, then coach. She's not going to learn all by herself. Even just deciphering what the exam questions mean is a skill.

I've read that preparation can improve scores significantly.....to a point. So by being familiar with the many differs types of question and being able to work at speed, both of which come through practice, you will do better. Beyond a certain point, more practice might not make much difference, although who knows where that point is.

Regardless of how selective a school is, you want your child to do their best. Of course, scholarships etc will be given to those who perform best. Assuming you're talking about January entrance exams, you don't have time for long term prep now anyway. Lots will have been working at it for a year and some for longer. Coming up with a plan for Nov and Dec (more than a quick flick through some books) will make a big difference. It will require you making a plan and time from yourself and your DD, but it's worth it and having read all these replies about some prep being a really good idea, one wonders why you might choose not to do it, just for a couple of months. I can see why people opt not to tutor for a year or 2 years, but a couple of months isn't really a big ask.

Speak to the school to establish if they use GL or CEM testing and then you will be able to access suitable materials. The ElevenPlus Forum (separate website to MN) will be very useful to you and they have schedules for preparation for different timescales in the run up to exams.

Best of luck.

Hi OP, my academic daughter came from a state primary and had to do NVR tests for the first time at 11 plus. Like you we only started thinking about it a few months before the exam. I don’t think tutoring was necessary, but she hugely benefitted from doing some practice tests three times a week or so for two months before the exam. Mainly from a timings point of view, but also just familiarising herself with the format of the paper and questions. I am convinced she did better as a result (she got an academic scholarship - admittedly to a West Country school rather than a South East hothouse). But we were very relaxed about it with her - I am so worried about the stress put on children now.

Thanks Cornygirl - I think that's what we are going to do - a few practice papers but no heavy tutoring. If that's not enough, then so be it!

Out of interest, did you see your DD's scores rise over the course of her practicing?