Attending Church, purely to get to a certain school

[sleepydad3000]

They're aren't many things I feel so strongly about, but this issue is one of them. I am currently looking at schools for my daughter. I am a non religious person and my partner is a none practising Catholic, doesn't go to church at all anymore.

I personally think it's wrong on a moral level to exploit a church for 6 months or however long, just to get your child to a certain school. It's almost like, "Oh hi, yes thankyou, I've got what I needed, you'll never see me again!"

2 schools near me are both decent, 1 outstanding and 1 good (Ofsted ratings) interestingly enough, the NON Catholic school has the higher mark as of 2017.... just saying. Both schools are great in my view, religion aside. But I'd feel awful and wrong and like I was cheating or manipulating the system, just to get my girl to a certain school, and then waving bye bye to the church after, as I know for a fact, my partner and I have no intention of going to church afterwards.

However, none of that means that a state-funded school should be able to close it's doors to those who don't share a certain faith

I think most people on this thread are clear but, just in case, a state-funded faith school is allowed to prioritise children of the faith. It is not allowed to refuse to admit children who are not of the faith. If it has places available they must be offered to anyone who applies.

There has been a tendency, at least in recent posts, to comment as if all churches are the same. They are not. The views of the CofE on this subject are very different from the views of the RC church.

A growing proportion of CofE schools reserve a proportion of places to be allocated without reference to faith. That is unheard of for RC schools. Schools of non-Christian faiths also generally only admit non-faith children if there are spare places once all children of the faith have been admitted.

As per my earlier post, if you stop faith schools from prioritising on faith grounds I expect most CofE schools would carry on. However, RC schools and some, possibly all, schools of minority faiths would close. You would therefore have to find in excess of £600 billion to set up new schools to replace the ones that had closed. The UK government currently spends around £800 billion per year - that is total spending covering the NHS, pensions, benefits, etc. So the government cannot easily conjure up the money to fund such a change.

Personally I don't have any strong feelings on this. However, I recognise that the cost of change makes it impractical, at least until the RC church changes its view on the subject.

prh47bridge - what about CofE schools which are bound by historic trust deeds? What if they agreed to abandon their faith criteria and are then challenged by the descendants of the donors of land because of change of usage? These things are far from clear.

Oh dear, Maria. So the state ALSO has a secret (though entirely unspecified) agenda when it comes to education?

Every day's a school day. Although perhaps that's not the best phrase to use.

Dorinda - not secret, but it has an agenda. Absolutely all educational institutions have an agenda.

Why do parents choose independent schools? Because the agenda of the state doesn’t appeal amd they want an education for their children that is broader and deeper. Why do parents who can’t afford independent education get so upset about it? Because they find it unfair that other people’s children are able to escape the state agenda.

What if they agreed to abandon their faith criteria and are then challenged by the descendants of the donors of land because of change of usage

Yes, there may be some of those, so the cost could be even higher than my estimate.

Yes, there may be some of those, so the cost could be even higher than my estimate.

Even if it wanted to, the state just can not begin to afford to exit the historic relationships with churches and faith schools.

prh47bridge faith schools prioritise their own (whether they are CofE or Catholic) and most of them are massively oversubscribed, so effectively they turn away those not of their own faith.

Regardless of whatever additional sums churches put towards schools or the fact that the land the school is built on belongs to them - those schools could not exist as they do and educate children without state funding. They are predominantly state funded. So they accept the tax payers money but get to choose who they spend it on!

There is plenty of criticism of the CofE saying one thing but doing another - accordcoalition.org.uk/2016/07/11/c-of-e-turning-blind-eye-to-faith-based-discrimination-and-division-in-school-system/ - so don't kid yourself it is just the Catholic schools doing this!

those schools could not exist as they do and educate children without state funding

Those schools could not exist as they do and educate children without church funding (property/land). Faith schools are financed jointly by church and state. It is incredibly important to understand the significance of this relationship.

Imagine, Margo, that you own a hotel. Imagine that you use booking.com to sell rooms. Should you, as proprietor, lose all control as to who your customers are amd which rooms they reserve to booking.com?

I don't mind church schools existing but I think it's up to parents to decide not to apply for them rather than the schools deciding who can apply. So if you want to opt out of a faith-based school then do. But the school can't tell non-churchgoers they can't apply.

Educate the children of the parish - that's what they were set up to do.

Maria they are not 'jointly' funded though. Joint funding sounds like there is equal amounts of money going in and that simply isn't the case. The faith schools are predominantly funded by the state, but all of us paying our taxes.

It's all very well having land and access to buildings - but that does not make a school!!!!!

FFS booking.com charges fees. It's not providing a grant to run a public service

And the law can change historic trust conditions. None of this is insurmountable, it's just that the status quo is convenient for many whom the government wishes to appease. I think it's absurd, as do many others, but obviously we are in a minority, at least among those with influence. The fact remains that I don't see anything immoral about playing such a ridiculous system if one can be bothered.

In the case of Voluntary Aided schools, all of their running costs and 90% of their building costs are funded by their state. The remaining 10% of building costs are supposedly payed for by the religious body. This is typically met by fundraising among the parents, or by further government grants.

All other types of faith school in England & Wales are funded 100% by the state.

Please tell me more about the joint funding Maria because I don't believe you!!!!

It's all very well having land and access to buildings - but that does not make a school.

Try sending your DC to a school without buildings 😎

longestlurkerever - you clearly know very little about booking.com. Ask a hotel keeper!

My point being that proprietors have rights.

Margo - reread the thread. Your staring position was that faith schools are state schools. It’s a common misconception and this thread has tried to help you understand how faith schools operate and how they are a joint venture between church and state.

Teachers are the most essential part of an education, not the buildings. Teaching happens in some countries in the most primitive of conditions and the children are still receiving an education of the same quality of our own.

However, none of that should be necessary, if faith schools accept that they are getting everyone's money to educate everyone's children and stop segregating and discriminating on religious grounds. They can keep on being faith schools and instead of just flogging their message to the believers, they can get busy evangelising!

You are just being silly, Margo, because you do not want to admit that your understanding of the relationship between church and state over faith schools was wrong.

MariaNovella I don't need to re-read the thread. I'm asking for evidence of the joint-funding provided by churches for schools. All the evidence I have found suggests there is no joint funding, there is state funding with the voluntary aided schools possibly benefitting by 10% input from churches. VA schools make up less than half of the total number of faith schools.

Teacher recruitment is pretty complicated without buildings/land. It’s not as if their working conditions were competitive anyway

SILLY - really? You are throwing insults because you can't answer my questions properly.

If you actually read the first document you sent me, the evidence is there screaming at you!