will someone scold and spank me and remined me I am a stubborn socialist guardianista?

[twinsetandpearls]

I have always made my feelings clear about private schools but the family has been working on me again and have ordered a proespectus for a private school that I have been idly flicking through and I have fallen in love with it and even - and this is a big deal for me - looked at the website.

For me this is a huge step and I am feeling sick with guilt, so guilty in fact that I have just re planned all my lessons tomorrow for my classes as some kind of penenance.

I need other socialist guardianistas to take me in hand.

Being able to afford to give your child a good education or good diet or loving home and then actively choosing not to give them that because of some warped socialist principles is a huge moral wrong. I shall send her off to confession in a minute for doing that to her child.

Dominiconor...I was trying to be amusing....but in answer to all your statistics...all I can say is that my own personal experience was far different than all the statistics that you quote. My dh who comes from the poorest of the poor in the uk will never achieve anything in the uk because of the way he looks and sounds. And his 3 kids that are not mine have the same fate. I moved back to the usa in order to be able to get a great public (state) school education for my children which wasn't an option to me as an atheist in the UK. My children are now at our local public school in a class with children of all races and socioeconomic backgrounds. They are getting an excellent education and I am getting the support that I need as a working mother (childcare and store hours that reflect the reality of a parent who works). In the UK, I was discriminated against in my workplace because I was a woman with children and working part time. I had rude jokes made about my race and nationality. I heard people using racial slurs on a regular basis amongst all walks of life in the uk in a way I had NEVER heard in the USA. And I (and my child) were almost killed giving birth in the UK. I had never met someone whose baby died at birth before I came to the UK, but there I met many. Here in the USA, I am surrounded by people who are living the "American Dream" and in fact my family share that history (coming to the USA with nothing and working hard to give future generations a better life). I rarely met people in England who had stories of bettering themselves over the years. The rich people I met came from rich families, the poor came from poor, the educated from educated and the uneducated from uneducated. My dh is a mature student who is almost finished with his HND...almost all the other students at his college are from another country. In my experience there is little culture in the UK of making a different life for yourself when you weren't given opportunities as a child (my dh is the only one in his whole extended family to do any schooling past the age of 16). In the USA, the colleges are filled with students who have gone back as adults to do something different.
Perhaps I have had an unusually bad time with England, but at some point after 7 years of experiencing the country, I really felt that perhaps the statistics might just be a little misleading.

If I won the lottery tomorrow I would look hard for a very particular type of private school with v small class sizes, un understanding of special needs and high acadamic standards for my ds, who is in mainstream state school with 30 pupils in the class and it is hell for all of us at the moment.
Think my dd will probably thrive anywhere.
My dsd goes to an independent school and is lovely. Hugely privileged because of her stepfather's enormous wealth, but a very, very nice girl.

"My dh who comes from the poorest of the poor in the uk will never achieve anything in the uk because of the way he looks and sounds"

What makes you say that, Sofia? What area of life is he encountering this prejudice in?

SofiaAmes - your experience is, of course, your experience. However, I question whether poor Americans with no health insurance would share it. At least in this country there is a basic level of health care free at the point of delivery to all. I would be interested in neonatal mortality statistics if anyone has them to hand.

You can fix you accent, and the idea of going from Britain to America to avoid racism is frankly bizarre. Yes the language is more polite, but the actions are far less nice.
At no time in British history has the government had to send soldiers armed with bayonets in to protect black kids from hordes of armed and violent Christians trying to keep them out of school.
My son in a private British school is mixed with as wide a range of ethnic types as you might hope for.
Britain has rather better legal support for flexible working than the USA.
Brits do make jokes about nationality, I make jokes back, I win. Again the difference is not one of effect, but of expression. Americans make fewer jokes, but are more efficient at keeping coloureds and women in their place.

Americans talk a lot of thge success stories. Back when I studied economics, the term we used for this is "lie", or to be more accuruate "survivorship bias". Americans like talking about such things, Brits don't.
However the odds of a native American bettering themselves are lower than almost anywhere else on the planet.
That's actually quite a trick, when you consider that in some of the countries which do better than the USA, the people in the elite may well bomb your village.
The USA is more democratics, rather than a cruise missile, it encourage a culture that means that poor kids stay where they are put.

I was born poor, didn't like it one little bit, and see myself as basically on their side against smug middle class types who like things they way they are.

Kathy6...every part of life. When he goes to school and speaks to his tutors, when he goes to the supermarket and stands in line, when he calls the bank and asks for an overdraft, when talks to his childrens' teachers, when he applies for a mortgage, when he parks his car in front of a rich person's house. I have seen him be mistreated in all these situations.

Aloha, you should try moving here!!! My ds is in a state school with a state mandated class size of 20 and there is at least one AS student in each of the classrooms. I know the parents of several and they are delighted with what they are getting from the state and the school. That's not to say that they didn't have to push to get it, but the experiences I have heard about don't sound anywhere as horrific as yours or the other ones I have heard about on mumsnet.

The "free" health care I received in the UK was far worse than the "free" health care I have seen that is available to the poor in the USA.

And in America you don't ahve to "fix" your accent in order to achieve something in life. I choose not to ask my children to "fit into" the norm in order to be successful in life.

DominicConnor, I studied Economics at one of the best universities in the world, and found that we weren't actually taught much that had anything to do with real life. I'm glad to hear that you got some practical knowledge out of your economics degree.

And the legal support for flexible working may be better in the UK, but the reality of flexible working is far better in the USA....people give and get it because it makes good business sense not because the government ordered them to.

I really object to the statement there is 'little culture in the UK of making a different life for yourself when you weren't given opportunities as a child'. That is certainly not my experience that of my dh or anyone I know. My parents both came from working class backgrounds and both left school without a qualification to their name. My Dad ended up qualifying to be a teacher in his 30s. My in laws came from a poor mining community in Wales and my MIL was the first person in her family to go to university. I could go on but would be too boring.

Pinkteddy - same with my parents (well, S Yorks mining village in my dad's case, London in my mum's), hence my question to Sofia. In-laws were the same. All 4 were the first in their families to go to university. And my dad certainly never 'fixed' his accent.

However, I have not experienced it personally, so I can't say it isn't a lot worse now.

I know what my parents and MIL say is different, and that is the fact that they had grammar schools. So they would not consider themselves as not having had opportunities - they all think they were given a fantastic opportunity which set them up for life. And that is a whole other thread with a lot of issues (the kids who didn't get to go to the grammar school, for instance).

sorry Pinkteddy, just realised I didn't read your post properly & you were talking about people who achieved things post-school - very different, sorry.

Depends what you mean by "not given opportunities" though. My parents left school with no qualifications. I went to university (from a comprehensive, in a town with four grammar schools) but I certainly had opportunities. Plenty of them.

Oh yes. Me too. Oops

Yes I meant post school. I was referring to the statement made by Sofia that there is no culture in the UK of making a different life for yourself when you weren't given opportunities as a child.

I think class snobbery is almost an art form in Britain. The distinctions seem very different in the US. There are pros and cons everywhere, but I get the feeling your accent matters a lot less in the US. I could be wrong.
I'd love 20 in a class. I'd really love about 14 max. I can dream.

I do appreciate your kind words though Sofia. When will your dh be able to join you?

I certainly think there is a lot of judging by accent in this country, but I am not convinced by the idea that if you sound a certain way you 'will never achieve anything'.

Coming back to the post-school qualifications issue, I teach a university course that has lots of mature students many of whom left school without qualifications and go on to get a Masters and land good jobs.

I've never understood why eduction was such a separate principle that you can be a labour voter and give your children huge privileges in all kinds of areas but not pay for their education other than through your taxes and house price. Bizarre.

(SA anyone can take elocution lessons in the UK and change their accent, plenty of people do it and I thought in the US there were some accent/class issues but I'm sorry you had such a bad time in England.)

Right will take you one by on,

re DC 16:01 a very good post and you have summed up my reasons for at least contemplating this school for dd as would like to think that this will be a thought through decision and that I am able to say I may have been wrong rather than because i am a socialist I have to think although I am finding it hardto disentangle my socialist beliefs from feeling that for me private schooling should not be an option.

Lahymuck I will not use the word asian as you will find asian roman catholics but muslims, hindus and sikhs are all welcomed at catholic schools, or at least that is how it should be and is in my area. I do think that as not only a teacher in the staate system but as a school manager and someone who prides herself on coming from the community that I work in and mantaining incredibly strong links with that community I should be using the state sector. I have always been able to say to the families that I work with that I would ahve no problems with dd attending the school I teach in - and i ahve meant that it has not een a soundbite. Today I felt like a fraud and that I was not fit to be in the position I have with the good regard and support of my families.

Kathyis6incheshigh I didn't buy my house to get dd into a good school but I was lucky that it worked out that way but I do feel guilty that my dd can attend a very good primary school but if we lived in a different area that would not be the case. I have tried to make up for that by being a governer in one of our more derprived schools as well as doign voluntary work in that area. My life tends to be one long guilt trip.

POintydog I know I will not drop thew guilt because that is me, it will be especially hard to drop the guilt when I work in a school that foir many people represents the failings of the state sector. My reasons for wanting dd to go are it will be a safe place for her to grow as a young catholic woman or to explaore her faith and make her choices, the oppurtunities are far greater than the local state school could offer, the behaviour will be better, I imagine alhtough I would chekc this out that the staff retention is better, our local schools ahve real problems recruiting and keeping maths teachers, it will be a beautiful place for dd to spend time and I have reservations about dd growing up in this town.

We don't have plenty of money but we have enough and would be willing to make scarifices and we have family members who have repeatedly offered to pay. I also know that we won't have any more children so we only have to pay one set of fees.

katelyle I am not making assumptions about the state or public sector, I have a friend who sent her children to this school and she was always very very happy and was constantly telling me that if I could afford it I should send dd, from speaking to her children I know they feel the same. But I would not send dd to this school (assuming she were to get in of course) without doing thorough research.

Xenia her father has always wanted her to be privately eduacated although he does not have the means any more to pay for it, I will be footing the bill with my dp. But my ex only wants to send dd to a private school as a status symbol as he doe snot value education at all, I am not sure if things would be different now thathe has his own child hoewever whom I assume will be state educated.

xenia I am not to stressed about sending dd ot an overly academic school, I can give dd all the support she needs and she is very clever anyway. I am interested in the ethos of the school, the pastoral care and the quality of teaching.

As for boarding well dd is only 5 so that is a long way off and would be her decision to make.

Xenia I clearly don;t think my socalist principles are warped or I woudln;t hold them! I hardly think that sending a child to a state school amount to abuse either!

Twinset I'm thinking that sometimes the people who feel most guilty are the people who have least reason to
From this and your other posts on MN I think you sound like someone who contributes such a lot to society - and really lives their principles.
I hope you find a way to resolve this.

Dd has just come to be given me a big hug and said my new school is amazing and she is not even upset about leaving her friends behind.

Twinsetandpearls - great that all religions are welcomed in your local catholic schools, but uncommon I fear. What percentage of Asians (both Catholic and non-Catholic) are at your dd's school? And how representative of the area is that?

If you're lookig at secondary school then frankly it seems a bit bizarre if she is only 5. I certainly wouldn't angst about the situation just yet. All sorts of things could and will change in the next 6 years.