40% of top grades to private pupils

[Judy1234]

That's astonishing - 70% of physics teachers in the private sector have a physics degree and 30% in state schools.

44% of A grades in French and German to private pupils.

40% of A grades in science and languages from private schools.

Yet they educate 7% of children.

" Private school pupils earn 40pc of top grades

By Julie Henry, Education Correspondent, Sunday Telegraph

Private school pupils win 40 per cent of all the A grades awarded in England in science and modern languages A-levels, figures have shown.

With the independent sector educating just 7 per cent of children, the statistics demonstrate hugely disproportionate achievement at the highest level in some subjects.

The dominance of private school pupils in two major areas of study helps to explain the difficulties that leading universities face when trying to increase their state schools intake. Admission tutors seeking the best-qualified candidates struggle to meet Government benchmarks for the proportion of undergraduates from comprehensives and poorer backgrounds and, in some departments, private school pupils vastly outnumber state school ones.
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Alan Smithers, the director of the centre for education and employment research at Buckingham University, said: "These results show the iniquity of the top universities having to account for themselves in terms of the backgrounds of their students.

"The reason for the concentration of good results in the core subjects of science and languages is that independent schools recognise that they open up future opportunities for pupils. Universities are being expected to compensate for the failure of some of our secondary schools to provide opportunities in these subjects. In the private sector, 80 per cent of physics teachers have a degree in physics. In the state sector, just 30 per cent of those teaching physics are qualified to that level in the subject."

The data, published in response to a parliamentary question, shows that 44 per cent of the A grades awarded in French and German last year went to pupils in private schools, as did 36 per cent in maths, 38 per cent in physics and 37 per cent in chemistry. On average, 40 per cent of A grades in sciences and modern languages across the country were gained by sixth formers from private schools.

Subjects perceived as harder to do well in remain a major focus in private schools. State schools, under the pressure of government league tables, are said increasingly to be encouraging pupils to go for better grades in "easier" subjects.

Sam Freedman, the head of research at the Independent Schools Council, said: "Independent schools don't allow children to take the easier options because they are not made available.

Fewer than half of schools in the sector offer media studies, for instance. We support traditional subject areas like the sciences and languages because they are a better grounding and because universities such as Oxford and Cambridge have made it clear that these are the kind of A-levels they want.

"Many universities would not have maths, science and French departments if it were not for the independent sector providing high quality candidates."

The achievement gap between the independent and state sectors is expected to increase further when the A* grade at A-level is introduced in 2008. Research carried out in 2003 by the Assessment and Qualifications Alliance, the exam board, found that independent school pupils were up to five times more likely to achieve marks at the upper end of the A grade at A-level than their state school counterparts.

Just as a general geographical pointer B&W -where are you? Home counties? North? East/West Midlands? South? South West? Choose your description but I would be very interested to know.

Why interested SueW?

Oh dear B&W, I have pressed your button haven't I.
I will explain more gently, so you can keep up. I am very good at explaining things to those who are prepared to listen, hence your problem understanding me. This talent does not extend to dealing with a class who aren't motivated. I can't do that.
People are prepared to pay good money out of their own pocket to listen to me, and if that involves getting on plane, so be it.

I cannot say that the 6th form college didn't have a qualified teacher, but certainly not at my level, and in any case I have met quite a few school IT teachers over the years and met precisely one who I'd employ. The rest simply weren't competent to master a computer themselves let alone teach it.

As for your own claimed experiences, they are so far from the average, and summation so improbable that either you are lucky enough to be amongst the best qualified teachers in the country, or are just making it up.

B&W go girl!!!

DC is this the first argument you have struggled with? Whilst I rarely share your views I do find you stand up well to the challenges but I do think B&W has given you run for your money but then she has perhaps what you lack passion, compassion and intellect. Probably can't fault you on the intellect and maybe the passion but the compassion I don't know.

No still 40 - 30 to B&W.

The problem I see is the bigger gap than in the 1960s. If you look at the boards of British companies, the Cabinet and all sorts of places, BBC etc a lot of those people escaped poverty by passing the 11+ and yet by 2007 we have fewer children from poor homes at good universities and more from private schools. That's the problem the Sutton Trust, Lampl and others who are certainly not at all right wing, are trying to address. British prviate schools are some of the best schools on this planet and obviously we can't provide that for most UK children because we can't afford it and lots of people from abroad buy places at them too as people say below but what we seem to have lost for some children is a route out and up that used to be there. The way middleclass parents in the areas where there are grammar schools seem to have taken them over and the church schools.

I think lumping children together something richer children don't have to suffer, makes for mediocrity and dumbing down and being at the middle of a class of not such good children in terms of academics, where as separting them out, creaming off the really clever ones (and I don't think all the damage is done by age 3 although I agree a gap is found by that age) will benefit them.

so 60% don't

Sometimes when I read these education threads, I think people are talking about another planet!

Xenia,

I think I agree with you in that there should be some kind of 'streaming' of abilities in secondary schools. I don't think that 'lumping' all children together in the same class really does any of them any good.
The headteacher at dd's school actually admitted that they would be concentrating on the 'middle' ones, which is pretty much damning those above and below.
I also agree that all the damage is done by 3. Even children who have been failed by school can turn themselves round in adult life. Dh came from a home where there were 7 children and no books and very little money. Regularly skipped school (as did I) and ended up with 3 O Grades, one of which was Woodworking. At the age of 30 he went back to college, did an HND and now works in a University. However, had he had the parental push and a better school, how much better could he (and numerous others) have done.
I still also think that state schools are massively underfunded and that many, many children are failed by them.

that should read 'not all damage is done by 3'

Actually, I'm big on compassion, at least what I as a non-Guardianista mean by the word.
I really hate the way crap British schools let down poor kids, and have been quite explicit about that, in this thread and others.

I see education as a way of improving social mobility, hence my scorn for B&W who works in a nice cosy environment, ()or so she says), and would have us believe that MAs in the right subject as well as the occasional PhD is commonplace.

Some kids are subject to poor parenting, but that does not excuse a system that condemns working class kids to an education that not only fails to deliver but is actually physically dangerous because of LEA policy.

Also no-one, even B&W has pulled me up on the term "working class school". Odds that.
Because they exist in plenty don't they ?

Both Guardianista and Dail Mail readers like them because it keeps working class kids like I was in their place.
G's because it means clients for their views, and DMs because they're dim and need someone to feel superior to.

IME State schools don't let down poor kids any more than middle class kids. It's just that the parents of middle class kids will fill in the gaps, thus making it a lot easier for them to get ot the few remaining State grammars.

[Blackandwhitecat - how do you go about the mentoring? Approach LEA or schools directly?]

Sorry that didn't help much.

B&W talks about an education system which I suspect is more like the one I know - in the Midlands - where I know great teachers both in the private and state sector.

But some people on here talk about private and state like they are a million miles apart and you can only get BAD education in a state school and GOOD education in a private school.

But, IME, you can get good and bad in both.

You get hardowrking kids in both. And slackers. And parental support & neglect in both - although in the private sector the child will probably have loads of money thrown at the situation in lieu of love and attention.

But I think my comments too MOR for them to be of any use to this heated discussion.

Oh my goodness. There is so much clap trap on this thread. What I find most shocking, patronising, rude and inflammatory is how someone like BB&W experience, intellect and vast knowledge is ridiculed and disparaged by self-appointed non-experts with egos the size of Jupiter but zero experience or understanding of the education system within which she works.

But then, I'm the product of a working class state comprehensive so what do I know.

Berries is right of course, parents can fill in the gaps.
However, not being a Guardian reader I care more about the poor kids.

Where is this fabled land that B&WC inhabits, where G&T provision is so excellent?
My DD is the only child in her school who is a member of NAGTY. This is not because she is exceptionally gifted. It's because I entered her and the school has never entered anyone else. I know of others (some in schools with a population of 2,000) where they are the only NAGTY again because they were entered by the parent, not the school.
Do you really think that no pupils are failed by their school?

Speedymama: haven't you noticed how B&WC, who is one person who works in the system, seems to think that everything in the garden is rosy but loads of others, who are merely at the receiving end of the system, think the polar opposite. Why is that?

"IME State schools don't let down poor kids any more than middle class kids. It's just that the parents of middle class kids will fill in the gaps."

Great post, Berries. Why do middle-class parents get grief for this instead of praise?

However good a school is, however good a teacher is - you can not expect them to "teach" a child in isolation. It takes a family, a community, a school to educate a child.

Isn't the problem is that we are all obesesed with exam results, and good jobs (read well paid jobs) and status. They are not the only things that a school should teach or indeed the only thing that indicates success.

As a nation we are obesesed and our communities are falling apart. Social mobility has drastically decreased since the 1950's, we live increasingly in a two tier society and us middle classes are scared.

I understand that funding of further education - which would include sixth form colleges is poorer than for schools. Is funding for state sixth forms in schools better? Or does it all vary from county to county - as I know that my county comes off quite badly for education funding.

With this

'I will explain more gently, so you can keep up. I am very good at explaining things to those who are prepared to listen, hence your problem understanding me. This talent does not extend to dealing with a class who aren't motivated. I can't do that.'

you confirm my previous point. Patronising, snobby and ill-equipped to teach in state education no matter how well-qualified you are and how much you think the state 6th form would benefit from your very presence. No, no problem understanding you. I agree with your initial description 'shit as a classroom teacher'.

Fortunately the majority of state school teachers don't share your attitudes. Instead of giving up with a class who don't appear to be 'motivated' and admitting they're only good at 'explaining things to those who are prepared to listen' a good teacher will get a class motivated and find ways of making them listen. No qualification gives you this ability or proves you have it. Some teachers are born with it. Some teachers develop it. Some never do and end up in a private school where students are selected, supported and kicked out if they don't toe the line (so most of the work is done for them before the teachers get to the classroom).

Again, you make assumptions about me which I have to correct. I work in one of the most deprived areas in the country. Nothing 'cosy' about it. Obviously it surprises you that teachers in the state system but especially in a deprived area could be well-qualified but not everyone is motivated purely or even mainly by financial gain. Most teachers in the state system find teaching rewarding and want to improve the opportunities of young people.

Xenia you are ignoring my point that we have never had a truly comprehensive system in this country. Grammar schools, faith schools and private schools have persisted. Inequalities are exacerbated by league tables, city academies and so on. In countries without these there is greater social mobility. You have to accept this as a fact even if it doesn't fit with your arguments an ideologies.

As I've said before a school ultimately can only be as good as its students. If a school is in the centre of a deprived town or city and all of the middle-class, educated parents send their kids out of that location to be educated (to their nearest private, faith or grammar school) then that school is highly unlikely to do well in the league tables (almost all of the schools in special measures have suffered this problem) while the nearest faith or grammar school will become over-subscribed, increase its ability to select (explicitly or covertly) and continue to improve its posiiton in the league tables. One of the best performing schools in the LEA where I teach is, inevitably, a faith school, which has 60 feeder primary schools and takes few kids from its own back yard. How's that for fair? How's that for giving a chance to poor kids?

Of course there are exceptional schools and exceptional students. There are children of barely literate, unemployed parents who lack the awareness, ability or inclination to study the league tables and seek out the best performing schools or the money to do anything with this knowledge, who still do brilliantly at school but they are rare and amazing.

If, as research tells us, the differences between the children of graduates and those who aren't are already significant at age 3 (by a year!) then it is going to be almost impossible for a school to redress this. If these children are already behind when they reach reception they will start from a disadvantaged point, feel disheartened and frustrated, be turned off education. If their parents fail to support them as they grow up then life will be difficult for them. To a large extent these factors are beyond the control of any teacher or school. They do what they can.

My partner works in a school for children with severe emotioanl and behavioural difficulties. They cannot cope in mainstream education or it cannot cope with them. In almost all cases these children come from troubled families and poor ones. Many will not even sit exams let alone pass them. Although my dp's school will not appear in any league tables, it is not a 'failing' school. The teachers and school do what they can which in some cases makes an enormous differnce to these kids' lives but will not and cannot get them to Oxbridge.

To blame teachers and schools in the state system for the policies of successive governments (which support inequality in education when they support and encourage faith schools, 'choice', etc) and problems in our society (which has one of the highest rates of children living in poverty, teenage pregnancy, child unhappiness) is at best misguided and at worst ignorant and insulting.

Dinosaur, she gets a hard time because she speaks the truth that the disparagers of the state school system don't want to hear or believe.

Wychold, I was at university with folks from private school and I work with a lot of privately educated folk now. In fact, before I downsized my career, some of them worked for me. Considering how much money was spent on their education compared to mine, I have outperformed them massively. I wonder why? Maybe it is to do with inherent talent that no amount of money, coaching or social engineering can acquire.

I also think there are a lot of parents who think their kids are better than they actually are and it is convenient to blame the system rather than accept reality. I also know from experience that schools can be remiss in pushing forward bright children to achieve their potential.

I was fortunate in that I was self-driven and supported at home by my parents. I did not have tutors or anything like that but they encouraged me to use the local library and provided me with a desk in my bedroom where I could study unfettered by my surroundings. Consequently I ended up with a PhD in Chemistry and a well paid career that took me around the world. Not bad for someone from a bog standard comprehensive.

Similarly DH. He too has a PhD in chemistry and is currently working in LA for his company. Oh, his sister is at Harvard Medical school. It is amazing what bog standard comprehensives turn out these days.

The thread title implies that the top 40% of all subjects, or overall, go to private schools.

Which is not the case at all.....it's only in certain subjects.

Only a tiny proportion of employers are now interested in european languages.

(I'm not saying that is not a reason not to study them - I am delighted that DS at state primary is lewrning both French and spanish)