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40% of top grades to private pupils

312 replies

Judy1234 · 24/06/2007 16:06

That's astonishing - 70% of physics teachers in the private sector have a physics degree and 30% in state schools.

44% of A grades in French and German to private pupils.

40% of A grades in science and languages from private schools.

Yet they educate 7% of children.

" Private school pupils earn 40pc of top grades

By Julie Henry, Education Correspondent, Sunday Telegraph

Private school pupils win 40 per cent of all the A grades awarded in England in science and modern languages A-levels, figures have shown.

With the independent sector educating just 7 per cent of children, the statistics demonstrate hugely disproportionate achievement at the highest level in some subjects.

The dominance of private school pupils in two major areas of study helps to explain the difficulties that leading universities face when trying to increase their state schools intake. Admission tutors seeking the best-qualified candidates struggle to meet Government benchmarks for the proportion of undergraduates from comprehensives and poorer backgrounds and, in some departments, private school pupils vastly outnumber state school ones.
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Alan Smithers, the director of the centre for education and employment research at Buckingham University, said: "These results show the iniquity of the top universities having to account for themselves in terms of the backgrounds of their students.

"The reason for the concentration of good results in the core subjects of science and languages is that independent schools recognise that they open up future opportunities for pupils. Universities are being expected to compensate for the failure of some of our secondary schools to provide opportunities in these subjects. In the private sector, 80 per cent of physics teachers have a degree in physics. In the state sector, just 30 per cent of those teaching physics are qualified to that level in the subject."

The data, published in response to a parliamentary question, shows that 44 per cent of the A grades awarded in French and German last year went to pupils in private schools, as did 36 per cent in maths, 38 per cent in physics and 37 per cent in chemistry. On average, 40 per cent of A grades in sciences and modern languages across the country were gained by sixth formers from private schools.

Subjects perceived as harder to do well in remain a major focus in private schools. State schools, under the pressure of government league tables, are said increasingly to be encouraging pupils to go for better grades in "easier" subjects.

Sam Freedman, the head of research at the Independent Schools Council, said: "Independent schools don't allow children to take the easier options because they are not made available.

Fewer than half of schools in the sector offer media studies, for instance. We support traditional subject areas like the sciences and languages because they are a better grounding and because universities such as Oxford and Cambridge have made it clear that these are the kind of A-levels they want.

"Many universities would not have maths, science and French departments if it were not for the independent sector providing high quality candidates."

The achievement gap between the independent and state sectors is expected to increase further when the A* grade at A-level is introduced in 2008. Research carried out in 2003 by the Assessment and Qualifications Alliance, the exam board, found that independent school pupils were up to five times more likely to achieve marks at the upper end of the A grade at A-level than their state school counterparts.

OP posts:
DominiConnor · 27/06/2007 14:52

Agreed about the phyiscal strength thing.
To many "role models" for boys, especially black boys are sportsmen who are almost uniformly dim and anti-academic.
Also of course only a really tiny % of kids have any hope of a career in sport.
Two of the dippy jerks running for deputy in the Labour party made big attacks on City bonuses, including that bimbo Harman.
They made no mention of the number of million quid earnings by sportsmen and media luvvies.

Most jobs in the City require good academics, some require excellent education, and of course pay well. This signal is seriously absent in the propaganda by state schools the government.
I know any number of mildly bright people who've worked hard and got good money that way. Obviously almost none of us are in the very top of our chosen field, but there are a broad swathe of career options and education choices that lead to relatively low risk paths that leave you happily solvent.
That strikes me as a fine idea to feed back into schools.
I guess in a year or so, I will be in a position to do something about that. I have quite a good list of coloured/ethnic minority City types who earn well. I have a pipe dream of getting them to visit schools and be arrogant and flash at them. To me the picture of a 25 yo black bloke turning up in a Porsche he earned by studying hard and working for a bank will do more motivation than some footballer who can't drive becuase "ignition" is a word he can't read.

smallwhitecat · 27/06/2007 14:53

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UnquietDad · 27/06/2007 14:58

Whether black, white or sky-blue-pink, it doesn't help when children's "role models" are people who have won "Big Brother" by being professionally dim, or non-entities who are famous for nothing like Paris Hilton.

Sports people can be good people to look up to - they don't need to be great intellectuals. I don't have a problem with them until they start stepping on my territory (e.g. the likes of Wayne Rooney publishing "books" - I imagine Wayne's actual writing is about as good as my attempts to score penalties for England would be).

It would be good if people in business and the less glamorous arts were admired by children in the same way that top sports people and pop stars are.

blackandwhitecat · 27/06/2007 14:58

I agree with you about sport but the thing about porsches is equally problematic (beyond the reach of most). Boys need to learn how to enjoy learning not just bide their time until they become a famous footballer or dream about fast cars and so on. AGain reserach suggests taht boys are hopelessly naive about their career options (fighter pilot and racing driver still topping the list even at 13 or somehting ridiculous) while girls do themsleves down with Oxbridge ptoenal bright girls wanting to be nursery nurses (nothing wrong with nursery nurses before you start).

UnquietDad · 27/06/2007 15:00

smallwhitecat, I suppose the point is that it's mainly the middle classes who "choose" to use the information. It's the leafy suburbs round here where people fight toth and nail for the "best" schools, while on the two big council estates in my city, there is very little out-of-catchment movement, with people just sending their kids to the local school as it is bang in the middle of their estate. I imagine tradition, family connections and a lack of mobility - both social and transport - are the underlying reasons for this.

blackandwhitecat · 27/06/2007 15:02

Agree with you on role models. Kids have a really hard time growing up with the media now. The messages boys get are they should be strong, fit, sporty, aggessive, rebelliosu (which will all get them into trouble in school and not help them in terms of careers) while girls are just told to be beautiful and sound thick. I've got a really bright bunch of girls in one of my classes but I've been trying to get them all year to spend as much time on their essays as on their make-up. But I do sympathise that they feel they have to compete and are told by the media and probably their mates and boygriends that being clever and successful is not attracitv.e

blackandwhitecat · 27/06/2007 15:04

Actually smallwhite I think they may only be published in the guardian and the times and the times ed and on the net. If you don't have access to these daily you'd miss them and a lot of parents not in education would need help with interpreting them. and even if you got through these barriers if you were poor and hadn't been going to church there'd be bugger all you could do with the info

smallwhitecat · 27/06/2007 15:05

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UnquietDad · 27/06/2007 15:10

I think it would be hard to suppress the info now. Even if official league tables were abandoned, parents who want the info would now feel an "entitlement" to it and would get it somehow.

IsabelWatchingItRainInMacondo · 27/06/2007 19:06

I'm so sorry Quatrocentto, that was meant to be in response to some of the BWC posts. Apologies.

Quattrocento · 27/06/2007 19:09

Thanks Isabel was worried I had been misconstruing posts -

Judy1234 · 27/06/2007 20:47

It's hard for clever disadvantaged children to do well but many do work their way through and succeed and even if they leave school with no GCSEs they tend to do better later than those who aren't born clever.

The current concern has been about fewer poorer children getting into good universities than used to be the case. If they are put off my fees the fact the £3k a year is now deferred until you earn surely helps. So if you live at home, defer the fee and take a job plus small loan you're home and dry really. If you're very poor you ven get a small non repayable grant denied to those whose parents are rich but don't pay them a penny.

As for cleaning I don't agree it's just a desperate measures job at all. My sister it between things. All of those of us with houses presumably do it fairly regularly and if you're self employed at it it's reasonably well paid and you fix your own hours and a huge huge number of my daughters' pretty well off university friends do do cleaning jobs in the holidays.

"what happens to a child in a private school who is disruptive, or doesn't do homework, or doesn't bring the correct equipment and books for the lesson or wanders into lessons late with no good reason " Depends on the schoo. Some are specifically for children with various problems. Assuming it's a fairly academic one not geared around behavioural difficulties chidlren then obviously those schools do have children with problems all the time. Every school will so it depends on the age. In the prep schools there are usually systems of merits and demerits of varoius kinds and ultimately the child would be suspended for a day if things got very bad which sometimes works and eventually he could be expelled but that is rare. In 18 years at a prep school I think my ex husband probably would have something like 4 children who had to be expelled, not more than that.

They are not so likely to turn up late as the parents take them there or they go on a school bus I suppose and if you're paying you probably do put quite a bit of effort into getting the child there on time.

OP posts:
speedymama · 27/06/2007 20:54

My cousin has been cleaning for a few years because it fits around her studies. It is an honorable job, she enjoys it and she makes good money.

DominiConnor · 28/06/2007 09:23

Agreed. I deal with people going for City careers, and some, especially foreign ones have got through this way. I tell them to leave it in their CV, it looks good.
B&W cat ,the highest paid person straight from college we've ever worked with was female (90K+ bonus from her first day), we must get her to visit schools.
Actually, a little thought went into the Porsche thing. If you buy a 2nd hand Porsche on credit, I'd guess about 1/3 of the working population can get one. That's not "typical" since of course 2/3 can't and most people don't.
But it's a damned sight more plausible than saying to a girl that she can win BB, or a black boy that he can play for Chelsea.
Also, it has what we techies call "graceful degradation". The vast majority of footballers who don't make the professional grade, have very few options.
Someone who targets a City job will have studied maths and science, and possibly spent a little effort in generally sounding bright. That will leave those who don't make in a lot better position.

Anna8888 · 28/06/2007 09:36

DC - but why on earth would you want to point someone towards owning a Porsche as a life goal? Anyone can buy toys in a consumer society.

Developing a skill/talent (like football) is far more worthwhile.

Judy1234 · 28/06/2007 10:26

Yes, but potential actors and footballers usually don't make it and don't have skills to fall back. It's wise to get the qualifications and do those jobs too so you're protected if you don't get to be a Beckham or famous actress.

OP posts:
Anna8888 · 28/06/2007 10:28

Don't you think people ought to be allowed to develop their natural talents (so they can enjoy life) and also ensure that they have a job qualification and some marketable skills to support themselves and their families? That seems to be a good goal - much better than the goal of owning a Porsche...

tuppy · 28/06/2007 10:44

Well whatever you think about Porsches per se, I agree with DC that owning one in the future is a feasible and achievable aspiration for underachieving teens, by working hard to get some qualifications leading to a decent job, if they also have some ability.

The same couldn't be said, at least in the UK, about an ambition to be a world class footballer or tennis champ. There's a vanishingly small chance of either event happening, and if it does, your career is over at an early age.

Better for most to aim for the qualifications and be a talented amateur at sport, surely ?

Anna8888 · 28/06/2007 10:48

I'd rather my child aspired to having a lovely house and garden. That meets my ecological side

Judy1234 · 28/06/2007 12:19

Ecologically we should all be crammed into tiny Paris or London flats though rather than insisting on our English requirement of huge amounts of square footage each.

OP posts:
Anna8888 · 28/06/2007 13:12

Xenia - there is truth in that but we should also be buying up swathes of rural France and old properties and restoring them (ecologically) and taking care of the land rather than it going to pot as it is currently.

Modern suburbia is really bad ecologically though.

DominiConnor · 28/06/2007 18:04

Tuppy is right. It is not my place to set the life goal of anyone, but as a pimp to find out these goals and assist in their realisation.

I am not in any way above using those goals as a way of achieving my own. A Porsche is a unit of achievement that most boys can grasp, so I use that. If I thought I could get away with it I'd get my people to turn up with the rather attractive women they have married.

blackandwhitecat · 28/06/2007 19:39

Thus reinforcing the very sorts of stereotypes which are actually PREVENTING boys from achieving academically.

You don't need to do anything else to encourage boys to be interested in sex, cars, money, football etc. Most boys are already obsessed with these things. What we actually need to do is encourage boys to develop the kinds of qualities and interests that are currently considered unmanly but are actually really important in the workplace (and in life in general) i.e. communication skills, concentration, literacy, thinking skills etc.

I appreciate that some people might want to use money and material possessions as a way of motivating students (I would personally hate it if this was only or even mainly what motivated by own kids) but kids need to have a career in mind first. So, I can live with, 'work hard especially in the sciences to become a doctor and you will have a secure, rewarding career which will also make you lots of money'. But I don't see how 'work hard and you will get a porsche or lots of money' is a particularly helpful message.

I agree with Anna that having a porsche as one's main ambition in life is incredibly empty and materialistic and dangerous (especially since young men are the most likely to have car accidents). Some young men who leave my college spend all their savings on fast cars which cost a fortune to insure and which they promptly wrap around a tree. Great!

Anyway, I think this thread has got so far away from the OP it may be time to call it a day?

Until the next time ...

Quattrocento · 28/06/2007 19:41

Domini - work hard and you will get a porsche

OR

work hard and you will marry an attractive woman

Erm Do you really ... Oh never mind.

tuppy · 28/06/2007 19:58

Am I being stupid here ? It's not about fast cars or pretty women, it's about finding some kind of peg from which can be hung the message that aspiration + industry + good enough (not genius by any means) brain can lead to a working life of personal satisfaction and material value. The material goodies might be a sports car, or buying a derelict farm and turning it around, or some other zeitgeisty trophy, it doesn't relly matter as long as underachievers can see the point of hauling themselves up and leading a fulfilling working life, whether paid to do so, or staying at home with small children if their partner earns enough to support the whole family.

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