40% of top grades to private pupils

[Judy1234]

That's astonishing - 70% of physics teachers in the private sector have a physics degree and 30% in state schools.

44% of A grades in French and German to private pupils.

40% of A grades in science and languages from private schools.

Yet they educate 7% of children.

" Private school pupils earn 40pc of top grades

By Julie Henry, Education Correspondent, Sunday Telegraph

Private school pupils win 40 per cent of all the A grades awarded in England in science and modern languages A-levels, figures have shown.

With the independent sector educating just 7 per cent of children, the statistics demonstrate hugely disproportionate achievement at the highest level in some subjects.

The dominance of private school pupils in two major areas of study helps to explain the difficulties that leading universities face when trying to increase their state schools intake. Admission tutors seeking the best-qualified candidates struggle to meet Government benchmarks for the proportion of undergraduates from comprehensives and poorer backgrounds and, in some departments, private school pupils vastly outnumber state school ones.
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Alan Smithers, the director of the centre for education and employment research at Buckingham University, said: "These results show the iniquity of the top universities having to account for themselves in terms of the backgrounds of their students.

"The reason for the concentration of good results in the core subjects of science and languages is that independent schools recognise that they open up future opportunities for pupils. Universities are being expected to compensate for the failure of some of our secondary schools to provide opportunities in these subjects. In the private sector, 80 per cent of physics teachers have a degree in physics. In the state sector, just 30 per cent of those teaching physics are qualified to that level in the subject."

The data, published in response to a parliamentary question, shows that 44 per cent of the A grades awarded in French and German last year went to pupils in private schools, as did 36 per cent in maths, 38 per cent in physics and 37 per cent in chemistry. On average, 40 per cent of A grades in sciences and modern languages across the country were gained by sixth formers from private schools.

Subjects perceived as harder to do well in remain a major focus in private schools. State schools, under the pressure of government league tables, are said increasingly to be encouraging pupils to go for better grades in "easier" subjects.

Sam Freedman, the head of research at the Independent Schools Council, said: "Independent schools don't allow children to take the easier options because they are not made available.

Fewer than half of schools in the sector offer media studies, for instance. We support traditional subject areas like the sciences and languages because they are a better grounding and because universities such as Oxford and Cambridge have made it clear that these are the kind of A-levels they want.

"Many universities would not have maths, science and French departments if it were not for the independent sector providing high quality candidates."

The achievement gap between the independent and state sectors is expected to increase further when the A* grade at A-level is introduced in 2008. Research carried out in 2003 by the Assessment and Qualifications Alliance, the exam board, found that independent school pupils were up to five times more likely to achieve marks at the upper end of the A grade at A-level than their state school counterparts.

Here's a new research report on English secondary education, favouring the return of Grammar Schools, selection, wider availablity of places at independent schools etc schools etc! I presume that the ERC (which is not the ESRC) is a right wing think tank.
There is an article in today's Guardian about it.

Mmm, very good.

"Prof O'Keeffe said: "Unlike David Cameron's parents who sent him to Eton, certain members of the modern Conservative party appear not to understand the importance of competitive education and the dramatically effective way it encourages, identifies and rewards talent and consequently increases social mobility."

The decline in competitive education has led to a decline in social mobility, his report finds.

"Comprehensive schools with soft and easy access for all have not served the community well. They have served only to eradicate upward mobility, and done so, perversely, in the name of eradicating privilege," he said.

Prof O'Keeffe claims the UK puts up with such a poorly functioning education system because the rich have private education and less well-off families also make huge sacrifices to pay for private education.

"The affluent can afford to buy houses in areas with good schools and parents anxious about standards can purchase private tuition," he said.

Prof O'Keeffe is also scathing about the concepts of "special needs" and "best practice". Special needs is the educational elite's way of covering up for teaching failure by reclassifying it as a learning failure by children.

"This has given them a huge additional budget and puts a block on reform by falsely legitimising the existing teaching methods," he said. Best practice means a mix of unstreamed classes and an uncompetitive atmosphere."

At DD's faith school the only entry requirement is to attend mass on a weekly basis so they have a wide range of abilities, social groups and family incomes including the kids with behavioural problems and those without much english and the occasional traveller but thin on the ground when it comes to parents who don't care about the education.

Perhaps parental support is more important than the type of school

LOL at the idea that state education is non-competitive. We have never had a truly comprehensive system since we have always had grammar schools in some areas and faith schools make up a significant proportion of our schools also (I've put the figures on another thread). We've also always had a thriving independent system in this country (currently about 10% and growing). The majority of schools do set or stream or band their students and always have (in at least some subjects). Most primary schools even group their children by ability from Reception. Since the introduction of SATS, GCSEs, AS Levels, city technology colleges and now city academies there has never been more competition both for school places and within schools and amongst school pupils.

I would remind you again that in countries without a private system, grammar schools and faith schools (in other words without an education system that encourages inequality and preserves class divisions) there is greater social mobility and arguably a better education for all regardless of parents' ability to pay, move or adopt a faith to access it. Quel surprise!

Suggesting that state education or the concept of a comprehensive system is somehow to blame for the lack of social mobility is frankly barmy and thinking that MORE segregation will somehow improve social mobility is clearly lunatic. Even the Tories recognize that grammar schools have and will continue to be hijacked by the middle classes who will move and coach to get their kids into them. Any school or system which only educates a minority (a privileged minority with rich or educated parents or both) is always going to keep the elite elite and keep the poor poor.

The picture you paint of state schools Dominiconnor, is not one I recognize. I have never met a teacher 'coerced' into teaching a subject. I have never met a teacher who is not qualified (except in the private system). In fact I think you'll find that there are proprortionately more unqualified teachers in independent schools. And teachers in independent schools do not have to have a teaching qualification. It often shows. It's no good having a PhD in Physics if you don't know how to teach. And frankly, most teachers could teach a subject which is not the subject of their degree at least to GCSE level. Two of the most gifted teachers I've ever met were in the first school I taught in in outer London. One had a 1st from Cambridge and the other had a 2nd class degree from a poly. Both had an incredible gift for teaching which actually only had a tiny amount to do with their subject knowledge and more to do with being able to communicate, engage students and enthuse them. Part of my remit is to work with 14-16 G & T students from schools all over my LEA. There are many. Every year we send students To Oxbridge who've come through the state system. Every year we get students who achieve 100% in some if not all of their A Level modules. And this without mummy and daddy's money and endless coaching.

I have never met a student who is being failed by their school. Only students who have been failed by their parents, poverty, drug abuse, etc.

Finally, if you are so concerned about the fate of working class students in state schools why don't you put your money where your mouth is and do something about it instead of boasting about the fact that your kids are ok and criticising a system about which I have seen no evidence that you know anything and have no personal experience of in recent years. How about offering your time and 'expertise' to state schools for example by mentoring kids from poor backgrounds?

Nothing to add other than go girl blackandwhitecat. You have argued the case so well.

Just another thought though - surely it is in the interests of all for our children to be educated with children from other classes, ethnicities, faiths etc... In our schools our children should get an opportunity to meet children from a huge spectrum of diversity. From experience comes understanding.

Also, why is it most privately educated children tend to be such knobs Duck for cover.

Kaz 33 "Also, why is it most privately educated children tend to be such knobs Duck for cover"

Hmmmm what an insightful and intelligent post - thank you for that contribution to this thread.
Yes I'm sure my ds's will be thrilled to learn that sweeping generalisations based upon ignorance will always be present amongst some people. Hopefully they will manage to prove through their tolerance, understanding of others and knowledge and experience of other classes and cultures taught in the private system that thankfully they don't hold such intolerant views.
I must also remember to tell ds (catholic)that his asian best friend, his muslim classmates, the fireman's son and the lawyers son are not ethnically or culturally representative.

bw, that is very much at odds with what I have seen, state schools with teachers who don't have a degree in their subject they teach and private schools with much better qualified teachers. Also I don['t accept your criticism of that new report. Since we had the comprehensive system just as the report says social mobility has got worse and worse and the way clever poor children can rise has been stopped in effect which isn't good.

Had a quick skim of the stats you quote Xenia and a few questions occurred to me:

What % or tossers does private schooling produce?

What % of knobs come from the private school sector.

What % of socially inept adults came from private schooling?

What % of achingly dull people come from private schooling?

Just pondering.....

Right, and your experience of state schools again Xenia? Where are these poorly qualified, useless teachers in state schools because in my experience which IS extensive I haven't met any. I have a BA, MA, PGCE and 2 diplomas. Most of my department have a further degree, one is in the middle of a PhD. Several are published.

Anyway, as I've said, your qualifications mean nothing (especially if one of them isn't a teaching qualification) if you can't actually teach.

And any idiot can get good results out of kids who have already been hand-picked and have supportive parents. Oh and are in small classes and can be kicked out if they're not likely to get good grades.

Presumably, your personal sample is why you have such a rosy view of the system one that is not supported by the evidence as being typical.
I flatly refuse point blank to believe you however.
It is simply implausible that every single teacher you've met is qualified to teach the subject.
As it happens I agree that there are more non-graduate teachers in private schools than state, but I don't count a "qualified" PE teacher as "qualified" to teach maths.

Sadly, I take you have an arts degree, and thus you genuinely believe that makes you qualified to teach science GCSE.
You're wrong, but I accept in the majority, which is why Britain has such crap science education.
You certainly shouldn't be let loose anywhere near maths. Your understanding of what constitutes proof "I met a bloke who had good qualifications but was a shit teacher" view is onrt I'd find troubling in a teachers takes with showing kids how to ocunt, let alone someone who claims to be be able to teach GCSE maths, even the dumbed down one we have these days.

I have never met a student who is being failed by their school. Only students who have been failed by their parents, poverty, drug abuse, etc.

The smug "never met a kid failed by his school" is so awful I wonder if you are simply winding us up ?

As it happens I offered my time and expertise to a local 6th form college, who rejected my proposal as "elitist" I offered to run a summer school for kids who showed ability in IT. Normally, each delegate on a course I teach pays 250 quid each per lecture.
If I'd been a professional footballer or a musician they'd have been over me like a rash, but excellence in a geeky subject cannot be countenanced.
With all modesty, I'm damned good at explaining really complex stuff, but I'd be shit as a classroom teacher.

Have you taken a look at a Science GCSE paper recently? The content of the specifications is rarely the most challenging aspect of teaching if you are a graduate. What's challenging is the teaching part.

Can't say I'm surprised that your offer to your local 6th form was turned down. In your own words you would make 'a shit teacher'. You may find that your local 6th form like mine already has well-qualified IT specialists and summer schools.

Ours offers programmes for A and B students in every subject including extra weekly sessions, trips and university entrance advice. It's funded as part of a state programme for students from disadvantaged backgrounds. It's also state funding which allows me to teach G & T kids from local schools to give them an additional GCSE in twilight sessions and to go into schools to give masterclasses and to provide web-based transitional materials to encourage students to stay on to 6th form. So much for bright kids being failed by the system!

I have never said that state shools don't have problems. I have more experience of disruptive, disadvantaged and disabled students than you can possibly know (and who obviously neither you or your kids will ever meet). However, in my experience schools do what they can for all the kids in their care which may not be enough. And what do private schools, grammar schools and too often, faith schools, do for kids from disadvantaged backgrounds who may have complex learning difficulties and emotional and behavioural problems. Bugger all. Because they don't even let them through their doors.

It doesn't matter what we think. Those of us who can pay benefit from this buge and growing gap between private and state but I would like it closed a bit and that survey or report seemed to offer some useful guidance and Lampl and the Sutton Trust have some good ideas too.

Xenia, you're just not getting it are you? It's people like you and your attitudes which create, sustain and widen the gap. You said:

'I would separate and separation and segregate. I'd try early on to cream off the brightest poorest children. I'd do more exclusion and i'd have special schools for disruptive pupils.'

The poorest children are rarely the 'brightest' in the sense that at aged 3 they are already severely disadvantaged when subjected to 'school-readiness tests'. If your parents do not feed you properly, smoke, take drugs, have minimal literacy and eduction themselves, have few aspriarations, do not value education, have no books in the house, have no money (to ferry you to and from schools for tests or to school daily), have no interest or understanding of league tables, the exam system etc etc then you're not only not going to be passing many tests but you're unlikely even to be sitting them.
That doesn't mean that if you'd been born in different circumstances or raised with a different family you couldn't ahve been the next Einstein.

There is little social mobility in this country made worse by private schools, faith schools, league tables, grammar schools (schools which help preserve the status quo and are not accessible to the poor).

Countries without educational hierarchies (faith schools, grammar schools et al) have greater social mobility. Go figure.

Kaz33 your comment really is so narrow and prejudiced. My daughter has a foreign born dad (yes he is from one of those poor third world countries I've lived there with his family, so I know). And yes, to give her the best possible start in life, we will forgo our loft conversion, any luxuries and holidays and educate her privately. Just so she doesnt have to work in catering here like he does! Think before you write.

I think you will find lots of pupils from non British backgrounds in independent schools (and you have always had the Prince of Ruritania in the top public schools). Some come from rich backgrounds, some are on bursaries and scholarships and some (in my area at least)have been sent to the UK on government scholarships - scholarships awarded by the governments of their own countries - in order to get an English education through secondary/sixth form/university.

Yep, totally prejudiced and narrow minded - but having been through a sixth form college in an affluent area, top rank university and ten years as a city lawyer that is what I have found as a rule that privately educated white middle/ upper class kids tend to be "knobs". And are as a rule narrow minded, prejudiced and boring.

But as you say maybe thats me

But lets not get caught up on me, I am so behind Blackandwhitecat on this subject. She talks such sense.

what I have found as a rule that privately educated white middle/ upper class kids tend to be "knobs". And are as a rule narrow minded, prejudiced and boring."
Give me strength.
I'm off.
Do you not read ANYTHING that people post that may contradict this narrow minded and predjudiced view you have??

Black&whitecat is not really in touch with the British education system despire her claims to have been in it at some point. Why she casts her ignorance over other countries defeats me.

The USA doesn't have grammar schools, and of course no state faith schools. But has the highest correlation between incomes of generations of any developed country.
Germany has a lot of faith schools, yet much better social mobility.
France has excellent outcomes for education, high social mobility and system that's pretty much designed to be divisive on ability.
There's just no clear evidence either way.

The issue is not separation, but failure.

With a good education you can move up quickly, but in the modern world it is very hard without this.
British education fails the majority of kids, and this hurts those from poorer backgrounds more.

I find it depressing, but not surprising, that the schools DominiConnor offered his services to for free didn't bite his hand off.

I'd be interested to see what would happen if I offered a similar service in modern languages or creative writing (the subjects I am qualified to teach, equally "difficult" in their own way).

I am with Blackcat on this one - being an expert in a subject does not make you qualified to teach.

Some of the lawyers/barristers that I used to know were incredibly knowledgable/experts in their own subjects but totally incapable of passing on information in a easily accessible way or inspiring their juniours.

My DH hasn't a qualification to his name but is an inspiring teacher within his field of incredibly technical IT/Telecoms.

DominiConnor suggesting that I am out of touch with the British education system when I have worked in it practically every day of my life for over 10 years as have my parents and as does my partner is really quite silly especially when you have absolutely no personal experience of it yourself since you have opted out of it for your children.

Your points about other countries just repeat my argument. Britain - lowest rates of social mobility in Europe, highest rates of childhood unhappiness in Europe + greatest amount of division in schools and access to education almost totally determined by your class (because of the enormous amount of private schools, grammar schools, faith schools and now city academies etc combined with SATS, GCSEs, AS Levels and League tables). How can you argue there's no link?

It's just unbelievably obtuse to argue that increasing selection, division and elitism in state education can somehow advantage the poor and increase social mobility.

I repeat, even the Tories have realized that this is just total bollocks and nobody except the most stupid or the most threatened by the idea of equality can argue that grammar schools can benefit the majority of our kids.

Go blackandwhite cat!

You forget, Unquiet, that Dominconnor described himself as a 'shit classroom teacher'. Still think it strange that his local 6th form college didn't fall over themsleves to acquire his services? Perhaps his 'shittiness' combined with his pompous, snobbish attitudes and assumption that all of the teachers in the college weren't qualified to do their jobs put them off?? I find your patronising assumption that 6th form colleges don't have their own experts on hand all day every day or lack the common sense to invite in their own speakers or take their students on trips incredibly offensive. As I've said, in my own department almost all of the teachers have an MA in their subject. 2 are working towards them and 1 is near to completing his PhD. We all have PGCEs. One member of my department helps to train beginning teachers. I give masterclasses to local schools and am widely published on Websites and in text books. We regularly invite speakers in to college including theatre comapanies and respected authors and take our students on trips. We have close links with local universities who put on day schools etc etc.

Forgot to say also that our 3 staff in our dept are also examining A Level this year, our head of modern languages is bilingual and a senior examiner and a teacher who has recently left our department is a poet. I have been a coursework moderator. This profile is pretty similar to the last 6th form college I worked in and is not partiuclarly unusual in schools and colleges in the state system across the country.