Judging a school by the number of children having free school meals

[speedymama]

I was speaking to another mother at the music toddler group my 3yo DTS attend and asked her advice about state schools in the area as she has lived in the area all her life. I have already carried out my own preliminary research and have three that I will be listing on my preference form towards the end of the year.

I mentioned them to her and one of them she dismissed because it tends to take a number of children from a more socially deprived area and consequently, a number of them have free school meals.

Her comments left me speechless because the school has very good Ofsted reports, other mothers that I know who send their children there, rate it highly and their SAT results are excellent (high 80%, low 90% region).

The thing that really upset me was her comment about the free school meals. My DB lost is job two years ago, is still struggling to find a well paid job and his 3 DC receive free school meals.

Since when did receiving free school meals equate to being a social pariah and undesirable? I would have thought that the success of the school demonstrated the commitment of the parents to their DC's education, despite their lower social status.

I think the woman is a snob and will avoid her in future.

Or "yeah"

'like' is a good one to pepper your phrases with.

Oh ma.......an...although I find myself reproving DD1 for that, rather as my own mother did when I picked up the habit of saying 'mun' in Bangalore back when I was a pigtailed slip of DD1's age.

'somefink' is another good one

FSM data can be misleading, in any case. We have masses of families who should apply and get FSM but don't. Round here this is often caused by what the locals call 'rural pride'.

Ie the family are poor enough to get them, but refuse to claim out of 'pride'.

I've never met a teacher who looks at this data btw. We have general statistics ie how many kids per year claiming FSM, but we are never notified on a child by child basis. That would be mad and utterly pointless.

[as an aside, how are your bowels Fio??]

My children have never been to any particularly "posh" school (although they're private schools) but I suppose it's all relative.

But I do take issue with it being fine if most of the primary age 5 in take can't speak English. Surely children come on better when they're bouncing ideas off others in the class who can speak their language and all working to a similar academic level rather than hanging round waiting for people to speak the language.

was worried you might still be looking like this

No matter what the subject in the topic of education, xenia has only the same point to make, however irrelevant

Xenia - I have done projects in many schools where, to begin with, a high number of children are learning English, and have observed that they progress very very quickly.Also,at 5 the ideas that get bounced about, educationally, are not too compromised by lack of language fluency
that children who are learning ESOL are actually academically advantaged as they have learned 'symbolling' - and that that supports cognitive learning in other areas.
That children learning ESOL in school are very often very well behaved - for a range of reasons.
Plenty of English speakers, say, put thier children in Welsh or french or spanish speaking schools and feel confident that they will quickly pick up the language, and have an advantage. Why doesn't this work the other way around - having children learn your language in the class?

So why do schools constantly explain bad results because 98% are from non English speaking homes etc? They should be saying - our school cannot compete with XYZ where the immigrants go because we're 100% English born so the children don't have the advantages of the two languages etc.

Speedy.......... can't believe you're looking at schools already!!!!!!!!!!!! Still, the only reason I'm not looking is because the DTs will go to the same school as their siblings (esp as DD2 will still be there when I apply).

Where did time go? And why are you never on the d'ya ever threads? Sigh..............

I'm not sure that anyone around here can speak anything other than "Sarf Lonnon", but it a useful tip.

I know that it is the mum's problem. I guess I feel a bit vulnerable given that we had similar issues with ds1 at a different pre-school - though frankly ds1 can be a PITA so I don't blame any mum from finding an excuse to steer clear. It is much more difficult with ds2 who really is the sweetest creature imaginable, and really doesn't understand why his bf can't come round and play - especially when he has come (just the once!) before.

Blu - snobbery/inverse snobbery - yes I guess it is an issue about prejudices really, and fear of prejudice. I was trying to cack-handedly say that for some parents a concern over FSM may be less about prejudice against "FSM families" (and I do shudder as I write that as I know that it is not a homogenous group!), but concern about prejudice against their own children.

Speedy - skin-tone: having always lived in London I wouldn't have seen skin-colour as an issue until I started looking at schools. Locally there is a real divide as to where Asian pupils go, and oddly enough it is the same in both state and private sectors. In the state sector I assumed that this was in part due to having CofE/Catholic schools around which would pretty much exclude Asian pupils. I appreciate that I was fairly naive, but I hadn't really considered just how exclusive the church schools were, as I'd mainly come across compliants from the non-church attending white community (where for most the requirement to attend church wouldn't be the end of the world)

In the private sector the divide seems to be caused by a preference for single sex schooling. And there does still seem to be a ghetto mentality in some of the schools -we have some schools nearby which are almost entirely white, and very few which mirror the community. I know some black familes who have avoided the mainly white schools, and I can understand why. But again I don't think that children would be inherently racist - but they might pick up on parental attitudes. Is there any easy way of classifying which type of parent is most likely to be racist? Some parents are clearly worried about gang culture and the possibility that their sons may be drawn into it and have opted for private, but I don't think that in reality these are the children most at risk. But I think that localy there is now a disproportionate number of black pupils (esp boys) in private school when you consider the make-up of the community. But people choose private school for any variety of reasons so I'm not sure that it necessarily tells you much.

I don't actually know, Xenia. I think it's more complicated than that...and does anyone know 'averaged' statistics represent, equally, the English first language speakers, or ESOL speakers, or both in equal parts?

The thing that you have to look at is the 'value' added score. This gives you the progress made, in light of the level the child came with into the school.

It is unreaistic to expect all EAL children to get, say 5 A to C grades, if they have only just started to learn english. But that shouldn't be a probelm for children who do* have English as a first language, since most schools can and do stream.

Whay you should be looking at is if the children have made the progress than can reasonably be expected of them.

Dino -- lol at 'Dogford'! And I can just imagine your two rolling around at that.

Depends on the school I suppose. Ours were at single sex schools which are very racially mixed but the immigrants here are reasonably well off, many of them, and are more likely tp p ut paying fees above all kinds of things compared with some English born locals, and often they are second generation British born anyway, so it's not quite the same as in some areas but definitely the private schools are more racially and religiously mixed here.

Our borough had one state all boys school which was very popular with muslim parents, but I think it went mixed and a boys and girls Catholic school which obviously wasn't full of muslim boys although there are plenty of Indian Catholics including at our church.

Surely the common sense answer to the thread is if you took a group of children from homes needing free meals and those at a school where no one got free meals inevitably those in poverty have more problems. It's why people buy houses in posh areas and go to state schools in them - they want to buy that segregation but by house price not school fees I suppose.

A high number of free school meals may indicate a headteacher switched onto the importance of encouraging parents to take up the option. A lot of families are eligible but don't apply. So a school with a lower percentage of free school meals might well have a similar socio-economic mix as one with higher but fewer claimants.

does anyone out there have any information regarding the following primary schools please? byron school in coulsdon, waddon school in purley way, and ashburton school in addiscombe?
many thanks!

Probably best to start a separate thread. Those 3 aren't that close together though?

That is an interesting point about people pretending they're not paying for education when they are actually, through buying a house in a certain area, whether that choice is because of league tables, meal quotas or reputation.