Can you be a leftie and use private schools? Are people prejudiced against the privately educated?

[SpoonsAndForks]

I've always been into equality of opportunity and on that basis, think that it's wrong that our country allows private schools.

But then my son's state primary went into special measures and I pulled him out and put him into private school. Now he's being offered a really great scholarship to stay on and I'm considering going private all the way. So I'd rather private schools didn't exist but now they do, yes I'd like my child to benefit from them.

I came across this book yesterday - www.amazon.co.uk/Posh-Boys-English-Schools-Britain/dp/1786073838/?tag=mumsnetforum-21 - the intro to the book sets out the 'public schoolboy' as the most horrible creature, misogynistic, egotistical, generally a posh hawhawhaw uncaring horror (usually a nasty MP). Yet the intro also sets out some interesting statistics about those in top jobs always being from private school (which makes me want to give my child that opportunity). But makes me sick at the thought of educating my child into a guffawing posh MP.

I'm keen to explore:

• whether you can sit politically to the left and square it with yourself if you use a private school
• whether children who go to private schools will experience judgement and prejudice against them
• whether children who go to private schools are all at risk of turning into posh uncaring brash misogynistic MP types.

Bert

If you can read, the particular ones I was talking about have closed, the children off the estate moved to other schools where it perpetuates to the next generation.
the girls at school with my ds1 are now sending their kids to secondary, and they are behaving the same as their parents did.
no amount of money will change this, it's cultural.

Of course it's not typical of all state schools, not even in our area, this was established way back with the acknowledgement of nice leafy Comps, where kids are allowed to work, encouraged to reach their potential and given opportunities. Where parents care about education and are able to support their children.

Whether you like it or not these schools do exist, they are even worse now PRU are closing, some schools have intakes of the previously excluded kids, halfway through the year. They are soon excluded again and in come the next lot.

It's not just the fact that these kids are from council estates, there are children from estates working well, with parental support, not preventing others from learning and behaving well. It's the ones who aren't that are ruling the schools, and this isn't right.

My ‘name one” was directed at user not you, gilly. But I am glad to see that the schools surrounded by barbed wire you mentioned are no more. Bit of a shame you’re still perpetuating them, though.

Bert

I blame the weather
Just because that school doesn't exist doesn't mean to say there are non like that, surely you can see this.
It doesn't mean that the problem doesn't still exist, they've just spread it out more, rather than just one or two schools, most schools have suffered.
In our area they are all about equal now, and behaviour is managed a bit better, however, teachers manage a year to be able to use worked in a challenging school on their cv, then move areas.

Bert, you don't need people to name schools, just look at the poorer areas of the country. Perhaps look at the poorer areas of East Lancashire, or Greater Manchester, Heyton, St Helens, or The North East.
I'm sure there are places in the south too, but I don't know the areas so couldn't comment on the schools there.
I believed it was the same everywhere, if you could afford it you moved to good catchment areas, if you couldn't you made do with whatever you were allocated.

Gilly. I have an idea why not transform 'Grisly Risley' (I had a friend who was remanded there) in to the 'East Lancashire Grammar School'. The intake would be completely different from Tunbridge Wells, Gloucester, or even Altrincham ! Why can't Labour M.Ps in the North accept that Grammar schools are needed in said areas and bear no correlation to what they perceive as 'bastions' of privilege .

On the question of putting VAT on school fees, all that would do would reduce the chances of children such as Gilly's DD getting the chance to study at a world class school!

Maybe that is the intention of these so called social 'warriors' to make sure nobody escapes their social strata...

letstalk

I love these threads where people know certain areas and can back up a particular argument.
I would love a grammar school in our area for the bright kids, mine wouldn't have benefitted but through knowing lots of their friends over the years, I know plenty who would have benefitted.
The argument about the rich being able to afford tutoring and expensive catchment areas wouldn't apply as nobody would want to move here from South Manchester / Trafford where they have their own wonderful education system, and parents aren't rich enough to afford tutors.

Don't get me started on the number of special schools that have closed and how many parents object to their dc in mainstream school with little support available. There has been a high take up of H.ed over recent years, mainly due to this.

Yes, Risley remand centre. I don't know much about it, but pass it occasionally when visiting my ds1. I can't believe the property round there, Croft is beautiful and would love to move near there when we downsize and dd has moved on. We may be able to afford a small terrace

Your point about VAT is interesting, I'm not sure if it would mean we couldn't afford it. I don't think it's as inclusive as many think though and this makes me guilty sometimes.
It's great for those with a disposable income, or the very poor who don't pay. They do make allowances for other children in the family though, so fees are fair in this respect.

Gilly . I'm in Trafford been there 17 years (my background is Gloucester ,sister lives in Tunbridge Wells) Hence knowing all about three grammar school areas ! Out of the three of them Trafford works the best...

For anyone wanting to raise tax or removing charitable status or whatever, please resurrect this thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/education/2946005-If-Labour-win-are-your-DCs-coming-out-of-Private-Education

A few years ago, there was a thread on the TES forum (a forum for teachers if you don’t know) asking “if you can afford it, would you put your DCs in private school?” and the vast majority said yes. Not sure if it was a vote of no confidence in their schools or just wanting something “better”.

Ds went to a not great comp. All the other middle class kids went privately. I felt so angry that it was so needlessly segregated.
He could have gone privately- it was a choice. Largely a moral one. But also I think the private schools- especially the high achieving ones are absolutely terrible for choldren’s mental health as well as taking them out of an inclusive society.
He’s doing really well.

*letstalk8

my dd knows children at her school who live in the area and before joining the school was in a choir that included mostly dc from the Trafford area.
Parents told me their children had sat 5 entrance exams in some cases, I couldn't get my head round this.
The boys from Alty grammar weren't very nice, looked down on her, and said some awful things about where we live. Sometimes I felt like tipping my cap, which I wore on purpose , but mostly the other grammar school kids were lovely. The parents could be a bit snobby and distant, but some were lovely and I'm still in touch, with a couple.

It does seem wrong that South Cheshire, and Manchester have the lovely schools and yet a short drive up the M6 and it's completely different.

Trafford works the best? For who? The middle class kids from surrounding areas bussed in?

Trafford gets excellent results mainly because of the social makeup of the area. Also, Trafford results are swayed by the very clever children from outside Trafford who come in to the Grammar schools. Also, many average students in the south of the borough are shipped outside the area.

Lots of the 'secondaries' in the south of the borough are effectively comprehensives.

As for not affording tutors.......you couldn't be more wrong. Children at all levels and in all schools are tutored ferociously in Trafford. The waiting lists for tutors is huge and I am constantly asked if I will tutor children. I refuse.

I think you can. Private schooling is unfair but if your child doesn't take the scholarship, someone else will, the school will still exist, and turning down the place won't do anything to change it. I think it's a good opportunity for your child to have an outstanding education, and I wouldn't turn it down just to make a point, especially if there aren't any other good schools in the area.

Mousse

I know some parents can afford tutors in Trafford, I'm familiar with the area.
however the area I am talking about, outside the catchment for these schools, parents couldn't afford tutors and we need a grammar, just one for the bright kids.
When you talk about others being ferried in, it really isn't from far away as that's why houses are so expensive in these areas.
The schools are full with pretty much local people.

You need good schools for the bright kids. They do not have to be grammar schools. Grammar is not synonymous with good. Some of the teaching at grammar schools is exceptionally average, in Trafford the parents employ tutors to makeup for the teacher weaknesses.

The results from some of the grammars look brilliant, but if you cream off the brightest they should be. Also, the grammars fail significantly to support kids with any form of learning need. And I'll say again a lot, a lot of the grammar pupils are tutored as well.

Don't just look at the headline results and assume that reflects life in the school.

Enough non local kids in the grammars, average kids shipped out, massive amounts of tutoring, a solidly middle class area (South Trafford) and lo and behold you get brilliant results. It's not magic.

The wider culture in the area supports excellent results it is not just the schools. If Alti Grammar was picked up and moved somewhere else the results would plummet.

Mousse

my good friend lives in South Manchester, don't want to say where as small area. A clue is the area has seen house prices rise drastically.
Her dc is off to uni after attending Loretto, she said people were amazed she hadn't used a tutor, she was the exception to the norm.

So depressing to see the same people advocating for a education system targeted at the academic high achievers. What sort of a society is that to be building for the future?

The Catholic grammar schools are a source of amusement to me. I refer to them as grammar school lite. They are notorious for having easier entrance exams. Students who can't pass for the other grammars are coached and tutored and their parents find religion.

Tutoring is rife though the whole system from 3 to 18. This is another area where potential hypocrisy comes in. I wouldn't have my dc tutored - but I know the exam system well so that's easy for me to say as I could help them.

Does that make me a hypocrite?

Gilly. I am sorry to hear about some 'idiots' from the boys school ! Some of them (a minority I say can have ideas above the station). You could of cause put them in their place by telling them your DD goes to a 'Public' school rather then a 'state' school like them ! Alternatively you could point out to ALTY Boys how pupils from ' Eton or Harrow ' might perceive them as part of the 'peasentry' ..

Betrand as I say frequently on this type of thread we educated bright children well in the U.K., the statistics prove his. However, we abjectly fail the long tail of low achievers. Predominantly, white, working class boys. No one cares.

Sour Grapes !

The Catholic schools you talk about are in the top 70 state schools in the country . The current Education secretary was a pupil as well as Greg Mulholland and no matter your politics a MP who has overcome disability and 'ridicule' when he made his maiden speech by Labour MPs .Paul Maynard !

Mousse - are you a teacher?

I can't disagree more tbh, grammar schools would be good in places where there aren't any for miles.
I think children would really benefit in some areas and it not affect other children.
Where we live for e.g it would give the bright kids a chance, especially if the school they are allocated won't help them reach their potential.
Housing, jobs, infrastructure isn't such that people would want to move here just for a grammar school. There are no tutors in the area and there would be no need either as the brightest would fill the school.
The old grammar for our town is on my street, it isn't such a huge building.

Just do the best for your child.

YWBVU and ridiculous not to do so on the basis that you are worried about what people might say about your politics.

You are not, I assume, an MP in a party committed to abolishing private education.

In which case just go for it without a second thought.

And you genuinely think that grammar schools are good for clever children from disadvantaged backgrounds?

Bert

Most definitely, if all the children there are from disadvantaged backgrounds, or degenerated areas.
If we had had a grammar and my ds1 was clever enough, he'd have gained an education rather than attending a cross between borstal and a zoo.
My dd friend would have been encouraged to reach her potential as it would be part of the culture of the area. With no other input a child capable of GCSE Maths whilst in Y6 is being encouraged into childcare or hairdressing by her parents.

Bertrand . That's because even the 'middle' class kids where Gilly is from are disadvantaged ! In other words there aren't many children that are not what you class as middle class !