Can you be a leftie and use private schools? Are people prejudiced against the privately educated?

[SpoonsAndForks]

I've always been into equality of opportunity and on that basis, think that it's wrong that our country allows private schools.

But then my son's state primary went into special measures and I pulled him out and put him into private school. Now he's being offered a really great scholarship to stay on and I'm considering going private all the way. So I'd rather private schools didn't exist but now they do, yes I'd like my child to benefit from them.

I came across this book yesterday - www.amazon.co.uk/Posh-Boys-English-Schools-Britain/dp/1786073838/?tag=mumsnetforum-21 - the intro to the book sets out the 'public schoolboy' as the most horrible creature, misogynistic, egotistical, generally a posh hawhawhaw uncaring horror (usually a nasty MP). Yet the intro also sets out some interesting statistics about those in top jobs always being from private school (which makes me want to give my child that opportunity). But makes me sick at the thought of educating my child into a guffawing posh MP.

I'm keen to explore:

• whether you can sit politically to the left and square it with yourself if you use a private school
• whether children who go to private schools will experience judgement and prejudice against them
• whether children who go to private schools are all at risk of turning into posh uncaring brash misogynistic MP types.

Four
Apologies, there are a lot in our area and we encouraged our kids as did some of the other parents, this was state school too, not private.
The Polish children, nor parents could speak hardly any English.

It's obvious that state and private schools can differ tremendously and also share similarities.
For every good private there's a good state, for every poor state there's a poor private.
Just because you don't experience it yourself, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
I'm really happy for those who have good state schools where their children are able to reach their full potential. Unfortunately, we weren't able to access such schools, as they don't exist in our area.
Saying that we have no grammar or private either. Not much hope for the majority here.

Theseare - fair enough.
I agree about Oxfam.

Gilly. I think certain posters that like to see themselves as 'left' wing are quite willing for children to put up with 'shit' schools in the North West of England. This being so they can cling to the plurality of what they consider as true comprehensive schools.

Of course personally their children are not exposed to the schools they would condemn on others !

You will also be aware that the children they claim to want to save have no interest in being 'saved'. In all what it does is reduce the options and chances for the families and children that want academic opportunity.

It does only seem to be us poor old lefties that are expected to walk the talk in every conceivable facet or be accused of hypocrisy. I've never heard a right-leanimg benefit recipient or business owner benefiting from government regulation called a hypocrite.

And this despite the fact that in 15+ voting years I don't think I've ever been on the right side of a vote! And thus the standardised, equal, valued, well-funded education system I believe is best for the country doesn't exist.

Similarly, I earn a good salary but don't pay additional voluntary tax, despite genuinely thinking a small additional tax at this level could be weathered and would benefit society. This belief does influence my voting, and I have voted for parties that would increase this.

I think certain posters that like to see themselves as 'left' wing are quite willing for children to put up with 'shit' schools in the North West of England.

Personally I'm not 'willing' for any children to put up with shit schools! I consistently vote for parties and candidates who value education, and think the educational system is currently being failed.

letstalk
I remember weeping on allocation day for ds1 secondary.
I could have appealed but wouldn't have got anywhere. He's long left school now, but I'm sure nobody on here could comprehend the years he spent there. Ds2 was a nice CofE school until he attended, he has also long left, the bad schools closed down after all the super heads and tv cameras left, they moved the kids into Ds2's school.
I spoke to them when dd was offered her place and they were so happy for her, mainly because she wouldn't have the experience they had.
Me allowing dd to go makes absolutely no difference to the other children in the area.

The left can not solve education problems, because they are not prepared to accept that lack of 'money' is not the problem here. You could throw 3 times as much money in to the education system and make not one jot of difference to the outcomes of many children.

This being if you persist in believing that children should all be placed together regardless, of ability behaviour or their families moral compass.

Sure by all means if you had the money you could throw 'Billions' in to trying to understand why many white working class children fail. The truth is because they don't give a ' flying fuck' and why should they because they are quite happy living on an estate with large disposable income whether acquired legally or illegally.

Indeed many have far more 'materialistic' trinkets than we do (burdened down with mortgages and debt) . Yet we think they should be lectured to by the 'learned' ones about the meaning of life.

Well put Gilly...

My ds1 cohort are Dead or in jail.
He was the only one in 6 years to go to university, he only managed c's in GCSE's but would come home and with the help from us start learning. he had no down time and worked so hard to better himself, he wasn't the brightest either.
This was a long time ago, 10 years now, but these schools still exist, not only in the NW, they are anywhere you'll find sink estates.
So when you look at your lovely all inclusive leafy Comps, spare a thought for the kids who don't stand a cat in hells chance of a good education.
it can't be fixed, it will always exist, and this is what we should be thinking about, not who can afford/not afford private.

The left logic for closing private schools that puzzles the most, is the idea that once they are closed, private sch. parents will then pour all that money and effort into state schools. Completely turning state schools around. This is the part of the jigsaw that is missing .

As has been identified one of the issues with education is white, working class boys and the lack of educational aspiration within that section of society.

When those on the left argue that money needs to go into the system it is not just more money in education. Wider societal changes are need Labour had started it with Sure Start centres and there was evidence that changes had started to happen. Unfortunately, changes to culture that is ingrained don't happen in the term of a government. You are looking at a16 year lead time for evidence to see if it is working.

The argument is that it wider culture, society and peer group changes that will lead to improvements in engagement rates. So when the middle classes are more committed to education then it improves for all. This is evidenced in the Scandinavian countries.

I am a leftie I live in the North West and my children received an excellent education within the state sector - it is possible up here.

Also, a pp asked how I am campaigning to improve education, I am heavily involved in one of the education unions and we frequently campaign on wider education issues.

I went to a ‘shit’ comprehensive school in the NW. I did OK but it is tough and I had nowhere near the opportunities and benefits my friends who went to schools in the SE (private and comprehensive) had.

Well said, soursprout. Good luck for your DD this 23rd August.

The big problem that swerves people who have other options (eg private, grammar, church selectives, postcode selective comps) away from educating everyone together is the behaviour issues that exist where there are significant numbers of disruptive children.

Society should not focus on private education being the root of the problem without taking into account all the other ways those who have means to do so in the state system select their children away from the poorly behaved.

I don’t think the reason people opt for selective education (whether this be by private or state means) is to keep all the high achievers away from the low achievers. It’s to minimise the chances of their child’s education being disrupted by those who don’t want to learn or be in school. Sort out the issue of behaviour and non selective education might be better embraced. It will also be much better for the well behaved ‘lower’ achievers and children without alternate schooling options who are most let down with the current system.

Applauds soursprout....

"the behaviour issues that exist where there are significant numbers of disruptive children. "

Isn't the solution to give teachers and schools the power to deal with this? I think the perception that children's behaviour is out of control is also one of the reasons so many people don't want to become teachers.

Soursprout- if only everyone was like you.

The worst thing about private schools is that it enforces segregation of children. By joining them, you are actively contributing to this. It amazes me how many of my middle class friends rage about the awfulness of Brexit and don't realise they have actively contributed to the divided society that has caused it by segregating their children. They call the 'poor' people who voted for their version of segregation stupid...

soursprout

just interested but why wouldn't you show your dd this thread, and people's comments.
It sounds like a good school if it's enabled her to reach her potential.

I think it's a different ball game when you are one of two people who don't live on the estate, when you are greeted by sniffer dogs, drugs and weapon searches, where lessons don't exist, where teachers don't stay, violence and muggings, a police presence in every class. barbed wire fence around your school.
having to do all your work at home.
Yes, children should mix with all sorts and like your dd understand some of their problems. When it interferes with their education, they can't learn at school, and witness what mine have had to witness, I draw the line.
It's good to hear that some things have improved anyway.

“when you are greeted by sniffer dogs, drugs and weapon searches, where lessons don't exist, where teachers don't stay, violence and muggings, a police presence in every class. barbed wire fence around your school.“

Many mumsnetters to the contrary, this is not typical of British state schools.

soursprout - your DD appears to be the exception that proves the rule...

Children attend school for 10-11% of their time. It is hardly surprising, therefore, that home (and the environment) influences children far, far more than school ever can. Governments need to stop focusing on schools as the remedy to social ills and focus on society at large instead.

BertrandRussell - in the SE of England there are plenty of comprehensives that are outwardly rather nice - decent buildings and facilities, children who are definitely not delinquent - but that are academically ineffectual and don’t prepare their pupils for anything much. You don’t need police presence and barbed wire to have a bad school - comfortable holding pens for the WCs, LMCs and the downwardly mobile are rife.

Of corse there are bad schools. No need for hyperbole about barbed wire and resident policemen to reinforce the Mumsnet stereotype.

Anyway, user, why not name one of these schools you’re talking about. I’d be interested in having a look at it.

It’s not a stereotype of all state comprehensives. It’s a descriptor of a segment of comprehensives. We need to acknowledge that segment exists just as much as we need to acknowledge that high performing leafy comprehensives exist and attractive rural but ineffectual comprehensives exist. And there are other segments too!

Name one?