Can you be a leftie and use private schools? Are people prejudiced against the privately educated?

[SpoonsAndForks]

I've always been into equality of opportunity and on that basis, think that it's wrong that our country allows private schools.

But then my son's state primary went into special measures and I pulled him out and put him into private school. Now he's being offered a really great scholarship to stay on and I'm considering going private all the way. So I'd rather private schools didn't exist but now they do, yes I'd like my child to benefit from them.

I came across this book yesterday - www.amazon.co.uk/Posh-Boys-English-Schools-Britain/dp/1786073838/?tag=mumsnetforum-21 - the intro to the book sets out the 'public schoolboy' as the most horrible creature, misogynistic, egotistical, generally a posh hawhawhaw uncaring horror (usually a nasty MP). Yet the intro also sets out some interesting statistics about those in top jobs always being from private school (which makes me want to give my child that opportunity). But makes me sick at the thought of educating my child into a guffawing posh MP.

I'm keen to explore:

• whether you can sit politically to the left and square it with yourself if you use a private school
• whether children who go to private schools will experience judgement and prejudice against them
• whether children who go to private schools are all at risk of turning into posh uncaring brash misogynistic MP types.

Socialists typically want to take choice or difference away from people ! Everything reduced to the lowest common denominator .

This is great for socialists nothing for anyone to feel 'aggrieved' about because everybody gets the same of everything. If the state can't replicate the best schools, the only way is to close them and by doing so you suddenly make the 'shit' schools average . Average being the common goal for all schools under a socialist doctrine

Posters talk about this 'Culture Capital' nonsense an idea dreamt upped up by socialists. This to either impose their 'social superiority' on people, or alternatively waffle on about the unfairness of some peoples lives

Many people are quite happy with their lives , living on 'estates'(no desire for home ownership ) having disposable income enabling them to go the pub three times a week SKY tv ,having two to three holidays a year . Not being able to spell properly or even knowing who the leader of the opposition is irrelevant to their lives.

Eventually my 'hippy' Communist mum got that therefore and worked tirelessly to retain selective education when threatened in her town.
This being when her school (deputy head) was fighting being turned Comprehensive against all pupils and parents wishes !

Rushing, sorry for small grammatical mistakes .

“This being when her school (deputy head) was fighting being turned Comprehensive against all pupils and parents wishes !”

Gosh- your mother was a deputy head in 1965? So born around 1930?You must be even older than I am!

Actually the attempt to abolish selective education in the 'town' was active between the late 80s and early 90s !

Let's talk you write:
"Socialists typically want to take choice or difference away from people! Everything reduced to the lowest common denominator .
This is great for socialists nothing for anyone to feel 'aggrieved' about because everybody gets the same of everything. If the state can't replicate the best schools, the only way is to close them and by doing so you suddenly make the 'shit' schools average . Average being the common goal for all schools under a socialist doctrine"

Have you actually looked at European countries which don't have private schools? They don't have "shit" schools, nor do they reduce everything to the "lowest common denominator". What are you basing your rant on? The UK has never had a period when it got rid of private education.

caroldecker - you asked Would you vote in a GE tomorrow for a government which promised to outlaw private schools within 12 months of winning?

Yes I would vote for this. Because then I wouldn't have to worry about there being a possibly better education that I could secure by paying for it. The option wouldn't exist and so I wouldn't have to do my own head in trying to decide whether to take that option.

Obviously I am deep in my own very personal decision making process and finding it hard to see beyond my own worries about the local state school. Once I am beyond this I would also relish a government decision to abolish private school as it would be fairer for all of society's children. Though I know that all the other elements (parents being able to afford houses in catchments of better schools) would still exist.

dunno.
i do have principles. i do believe in state education. but then ive always had a close eye on schools. my older dds went through local good state schools that were piss poor really.
we have moved in time for dd3 secondary application (relocated 100miles rather than just down the road).
so really having principles is fine when you are able to upsticks and move.
if we hadnt, i may well have gone private for dd3 but where we lived there were no private schools that catered for less bright kids. funnily enough, where we have moved to (east sussex/kent border) there are.

We live in a very challenging catchment. We know people who could have afforded private but "did not believe in it" so used their resources to rent in another catchment (very common whatever safeguards are supposed to be in place) or pay for 11+ tutoring. And obviously many moved to be in better catchments.

We paid. But I don't accept the moral high ground from others. The great thing is that DC were able to go to schools that were right for them, and will be in a position to give back to society.

“I wouldn’t have to worry about there being a possibly better education that I could secure by paying for it.”

So we’d be outlawing other paid for education, like tutoring, extra curricular classes and home education too?

And completely changing school admissions criteria so it no longer depended on distance from school. Because at present people pay for entry to popular state schools in housing costs.

“funnily enough, where we have moved to (east sussex/kent border) there are.”

Yep- funny that!

So spoonsandforks wants private education abolished because then she has one less thing to worry about.
I, on the other hand, would have one more, namely trying to find a school to accommodate my asd son and his programme of support which the LEA originally refused to allow him to take into one of those schools.
But hey, he’s just one of those posh little wankers, so who cares?

My mum's hatred for selective and private education (pre- breakdown and despite being public school educated herself) meant I had to endure 1 year in a Children's home. Fortunately my uncle intervened against her wishes and saved me . Lucky sister (8 years younger) did not endure the same fate, mum by then had embraced wholeheartedly selective and also private education. Sister went to public school for sixth form after grammar school fully endorsed by mum.

I write this because whatever your political beliefs your child deserves the best education available to them. Also denying fortunate children, a selective or private education does make it any better for those currently receiving a poor education.

Does not...

i would like to see private schools abolished

I would like authoritarian socialism to be abolished, but somehow it clings to modern society like a dog turd to fresh carpet.

So spoonsandforks wants private education abolished because then she has one less thing to worry about.
I, on the other hand, would have one more, namely trying to find a school to accommodate my asd son and his programme of support which the LEA originally refused to allow him to take into one of those schools.
But hey, he’s just one of those posh little wankers, so who cares?

Why on earth would I be calling your child a posh little wanker?! I'm not some evil ogre! I don't divide people up into posh / not posh (the references to stereotypes in my OP were from the book that I linked to). I am currently using a private school so why on earth would I do that if I felt that private schools were full of posh little wankers - that would make my own child one wouldn't it?!

Of course I wouldn't advocate creating problems for any child who is currently well supported, I was simply responding in a top-level way (ie without deep thought and consideration of people's individual circumstances) to a question about whether I'd vote for the abolition of private schools. If I were actually voting for that in real life then I'd be looking for all the detail to understand how individuals would be affected and what the new arrangements would be for families using the schools that would be abolished.

The school systems in other European countries would not necessarily work here. The UK has a different culture.

I dont get why anyone would think that a socialist education system would somehow mean all schools have all the money they need to be all things to all children. Actually if you banned private education the state would suddenly have 600,000 more children to educate, so there would be LESS money in each school.

Also the idea that a socialist system means parents would have lots of choice is also barmy. In England if you banned private schools I am pretty sure those rich parents would buy expensive houses right beside the best schools and poor parents would be left with the worse performing schools. Like we have now but ten times worse.

Some posters need a dose of reality.

LOL at people trumpeting European schools.

Do you know that nothing is provided? Nada. All equipment, down to pencils, paper, craft stuff - parents must provide and pay for. Can't/won't pay? Then you don't do the activity.

Masses of learning is by rote. Learning chunks of stuff off by heart. Year groups may not be set, or streamed or what have you, but if you get left behind then tough cheese.

Division at 11 or 14-ish. So in effect dividing academic and non-academic children at this age.

Teacher assessment? A while ago teachers in Italy voted to award only the "Political 6" to all pupils as it was discriminatory for some to better than others. So however they were achieving or not achieving, they would all get a 6 (so a C, I suppose, in UK language). This resulted in an absolute mess for university entrance, as pupils who were clearly incapable were entitled to medical school etc entry. That's what happens when you dictate "equality of outcome".

Irmafay Thank you very much for such an insightful post. It’s always very good when you have people who actually have knowledge of the European system come on.

Hm- I know nothing about schools in Italy, but actually Italy has private schools, so wasn't even one of the systems I would have been talking about.

I know a little about Holland and some of the Scandinavian countries. My best friend is a teacher in Holland, and her 4 kids have all grown up there.

I actually don't think there is any point arguing with you.

Schools are a mess in plenty of countries! Teacher shortages and highly centralised, lowest common denominator curricula abound.

Holland has private schools as well and free education only goes up to age 16.After which they pay tuition. .

letstalk2000 you say "Everything reduced to the lowest common denominator" in relation to socialism.

You couldn't be more wrong. The ideal is that everything is delivered to the same high standard. Now you can disagree with whether that actually happens but the aim is increase standards for all.

When you consider education in Finland and the Scandinavian countries their education is a lot more equitable. The problem with trying to bring that to the U.K. is that everybody is treated the same! The horror. The rich don't get to buy advantage.

If we had an equitable education system who would people look down on and how would they know they were superior? Yep U.K. culture would not support a fair system.

The ideal is that everything is delivered to the same high standard
You are right a lot of parents in the UK wouldn't accept a crappy bog standard education. As a lot of posters have said the desire for their children to have the best they can provide seems to override their principles of socialism.

I would also say its best for the country if there is all least some children getting a world class education, we need doctors, scientists and engineers. But we also need bin men, hair dressers and cleaners.

Itshot that is not true. You may have seen a website for foreigners in Holland.

There are a handful of international schools in Holland, for which foreigners (usually) pay fees to, for instance, do GCSEs or IB. This is a tiny handful in the entire country, far fewer than 1% of Dutch children go to fee paying schools (probably fewer than .01%). Privately run schools in Holland are fully funded by the government, giving a variety of types of education which is completely free for the students.

Not only is education free through to 18, University is free and students even get a stipend to go, so their expenses are often completely covered, and they get free rail travel.

There are problems with the gymnasium system, but it is free for everyone, no fee paying schools, and lots of variety of educational opportunity, not based on ability to pay.

No, not a website for foreigners, just wiki. Quit frankly their system sounds horrendous with exams every year from elementary level which dictate wether you move to the next year or not. Then either of two tests at age 12; Cito or ? (Can’t remember) where children are divided according to their results (perceived ability). So good old selective system, much like our 11+.

Students between 16-18yrs pay tuition fees according to my wiki source, but if i’m happy to read your source.