Can you be a leftie and use private schools? Are people prejudiced against the privately educated?

[SpoonsAndForks]

I've always been into equality of opportunity and on that basis, think that it's wrong that our country allows private schools.

But then my son's state primary went into special measures and I pulled him out and put him into private school. Now he's being offered a really great scholarship to stay on and I'm considering going private all the way. So I'd rather private schools didn't exist but now they do, yes I'd like my child to benefit from them.

I came across this book yesterday - www.amazon.co.uk/Posh-Boys-English-Schools-Britain/dp/1786073838/?tag=mumsnetforum-21 - the intro to the book sets out the 'public schoolboy' as the most horrible creature, misogynistic, egotistical, generally a posh hawhawhaw uncaring horror (usually a nasty MP). Yet the intro also sets out some interesting statistics about those in top jobs always being from private school (which makes me want to give my child that opportunity). But makes me sick at the thought of educating my child into a guffawing posh MP.

I'm keen to explore:

• whether you can sit politically to the left and square it with yourself if you use a private school
• whether children who go to private schools will experience judgement and prejudice against them
• whether children who go to private schools are all at risk of turning into posh uncaring brash misogynistic MP types.

Haven't RTFT. But the OP's original question really interests me.

Both me and my sister are opposed to private schooling in an abstract 'wish it didn't exist' kind of a way. I got lucky, and my DDs grew up in an area with good state schools so my commitment, such as it was, never got put to the test. My sister lived in an area where the state schools really weren't going to work for her DDs, and she made the decision to send them to a private school. It was one of those many compromises we all have to make from time to time, to do the best for our DCs as we see it, with the evidence we've got. So yes, to the first part of your question, I think it's possible. Though what would be seriously annoying would be for someone to use private schools themselves whilst telling others they shouldn't.

Second part of the question, well, people make judgements about others based on all sorts of reasons - skin colour, body shape/size, gender, sexuality, religion, school attended etc. I don't know that anti-private-school prejudice is worse than any other kind.

Third question, I think it entirely depends on the school and the other influences on the child. Possibly there are independent schools that teach a feeling of superiority - my knowledge of this area isn't extensive so I don't know for sure. The independent schools I'm aware of definitely seem to teach self-confidence, but I'm not convinced that's always a bad thing. I can only compare my DDs' and my nieces' education and outcomes, at state and independent respectively. All of them enjoyed their schooling and emerged as confident but not arrogant young women. I guess you'd need to do your research on the school you have in mind. E.g. ask to have a tour conducted by older pupils and see what kind of vibe you pick up from them, and talk to parents if you can. I know my sister did that before deciding on her DDs' school. And make sure you give your DS a realistic view of how privileged his education is when he becomes old enough to understand.

When people (socialists included!!) make comments about a local school "not going to work for my children" and "they are very bright" yada yada, what they actually mean is that no matter how wonderful the teachers, how state-of-the-art the facilities are, no matter how absolutely anything... the fact is the pupils (and their parents) there are predominantly not PLU .

They do not want their dcs to have to rub shoulders with the great unwashed, but just can't be honest and admit it. The same people will trumpet about lack of opportunities for such pupils and lack of representation at Russell Group universities, nay, Oxbridge, but they really don't want their own dcs to have to encounter Destineee or Kaylo anywhere along the line.

My information is based on knowing a lot of Dutch families and spending a lot of time there. I think secondary schools ask for a voluntary nominal contribution from parents, to cover extras, and also often kids need to buy books, etc. This is not comparable to "paying tuition".

The fact that you condemn a system as "horrendous" without knowing anything about it means that anything I say will fall on deaf ears though.

I already said that I thought there was a lot wrong with the gymnasium, atheneum, system, but ---- That was not what I was talking about!

Irma - it isn’t that. What parents buy at private schools is an infinitely superior education - better teachers, better facilities, a huge range of activities that state schools cannot afford to offer.

A friend of ours who lives in the Netherlands and whose DC attend Dutch schools dropped by this morning for coffee on his way to a family funeral. He isn’t very happy with the Dutch school system.

I am definitely not an expert on the Holland system and never purported to be. I did say I got my information from wiki and happy to read your sources? Which you haven’t provided. You are definitely wrong in thinking education is free between ages 16-18yrs. I am not confusing that with the voluntary contribution in lower yrs. however, lower income families can apply for a loan or grant.

They also have the awful selective system at 12, although parents can override the decision and choose to send their dc to the more academic school. The less academic schools are stigmatised.

I have read enough about the Holland system in the last hour or so to decide it is horrendous and wouldn’t work for me. I don’t like the culture of mediocrity as a goal but then in the Netherlands this works for them. Apparently you are predicted to be successful in life wether you achieve highlyacademically or not, being born a citizen alone assures you this.

Racial segregation is insidious. There are what is known as zwarte scolen, black schools. Whites avoid these schools although the govt. are trying to encourage racial mixing, but so far it’s not working.

I’m not white. So it might be utopia for you, but not for me.

IrmaFayLear you mention people using coded language about local schools not being right for their child and really meaning that they don't want their children to rub shoulders with people who aren't like them.

Perhaps some of those parents do exist, I don't know for sure, but for myself and the others I know who have used private schools that definitely isn't the case.

It's simply because the class sizes of 32 at state school versus class sizes of 15/20 at private school means your child gets more teacher time and that the teacher is less stretched. The same smaller class sizes paired with more coaches in games and PE plus often better resources (e.g. equipment / courts / pools) mean that children get more attention, teacher time and coaching. There are not so many issues with recruitment and retention so children are less likely to have supply teachers. That's what it's about. Nobody is dumb enough to pay a shed load of cash to avoid their child being with people who aren't like them and in fact plenty of private school parents ensure their child joins regular out of school activities to ensure a balanced friendship group.

Cross posted user1499173618

There must be something right with the 'best' of British education including state grammar schools in that statement. This being because those that are 'internationally' mobile, go to great lengths for their children to attend them.

Dutch school system costs an average family c€825 a year in 'voluntary' payments.
The system also splits secondary pupils into 3 tiers, with 60% going down a non-university route. Whilst there are pathways back, it is hard. It is estimated round 30% of gifted pupils are sent down the non-university track, due to late development or social issues at the time of the exams/late primary school career.
So basically, govt funded private schools for the middle classes and fuck the poor. No wonder socialist like it.

I suspect wealthy Italians would like to educate privately in the U.k /Switzerland given what was posted upthread .

On selectivity, I’m not actually against selection. I think it makes students to aspire, work hard and prepares them for a competitive workplace which is the real world. No employer just promotes everyone.

What I don’t like, is the option for those who don’t make that 11+ exam.. The secondary moderns and the poor provision for dc with SEN.

“When people (socialists included!!) make comments about a local school "not going to work for my children" and "they are very bright" yada yada, what they actually mean is that no matter how wonderful the teachers, how state-of-the-art the facilities are, no matter how absolutely anything... the fact is the pupils (and their parents) there are predominantly not PLU “
Yep. And the reason I know that? Because it’s exactly how I felt,

Until teaching becomes a valued (= highly paid profession for the very well qualified), state education will be dire.

"Until teaching becomes a valued (= highly paid profession for the very well qualified), state education will be dire."

Teaching is already valued. The social status of teachers is quite high, even if the pay is not. There is also no need to be very well qualified. I doubt a doctorate makes someone a better teacher (unless possibly at university level).
Private school teachers aren't any more qualified are they, in fact, they don't have to be qualified teachers at all so that is hardly what makes the difference.

Nobody is dumb enough to pay a shed load of cash to avoid their child being with people who aren't like them
Ummm do you know anyone who goes to a grammar or private school, its very common. Of course they are not going to say it in public but have a glass of wine with them and it all comes spilling out.

Plenty of private sector teachers have skills and experience that is poorly measured by the usual state quantifiers. That often makes them far better teachers.

Nobody is dumb enough to pay a shed load of cash to avoid their child being with people who aren't like them

I have paid a shed load of cash to ensure precisely that. From the age of 3-18 for both kids. I don't want my children to mix with kids who are not like them.

It all depends upon what you mean about "not like them" of course. The children I wanted my DC to mix with were academic. I'm academic, they're academic. I wanted them to mix with kids who were academic (flame me, go ahead, flame me for that). Also I am mixed race. The local comp is completely stuffed full of white people. The ethnic minority background of our local comp is 99% working class white. The outcomes for those kids are very poor, on the whole. Our local independent is stuffed full of loads of kids of many racial backgrounds. DS was part of the head boy team. Every single one of the head boy team was not white.

Yeah, I wanted my kids to mix with people like them. Educated, multicultural and working hard. Flame me.

DS is going to grammar. I will not be paying a shed load of cash and he will be mixing with plenty of people different to him and our family Walkingdeadfangirl.

Just because that's the way you felt Bert, doesn't mean that everyone else is the same.

Dione, I didn't say everyone. I said that their are plenty of people who choose (and pay for) schools that have specific demographics of children at them.

There is no doubt that such people exist Walkingdeadfangirl but would they describe themselves as lefties? Can you be a lefty and consciously not want your children mixing with children from lower socio-economic backgrounds?

Dione, I think there are people from all categories of life who do this. I have known people from lower socio-economic backgrounds who refuse to send their DC to certain schools because its filled with 'snobby posh kids'. 'Lefties' have the same prejudices as everyone else.

"Yep. And the reason I know that? Because it’s exactly how I felt,"

The difference is that I know that it's a really crap way to feel and something to be resisted and worked on. Many others think it's fine-even desirable.

People are always leftie socialists until it suits them not be 😂

Yes this 100% no more needs to be said!!

Wow Bertand, arbiter of what amount of privilege is acceptable and when too much is too much (going to private education is ALWAYS too much) My children are incredibly privileged already-they don't need any more and now arbiter of how to feel and how much to feel it is wrong *Yep. And the reason I know that? Because it’s exactly how I felt,"

The difference is that I know that it's a really crap way to feel and something to be resisted and worked on. Many others think it's fine-even desirable*
I liked it when you seemed to have ideals now it seems we just must all feel as you do? For the record I disagree with your judgement on privilege and I ABSOLUTELY disagree with your premise people pick private education to keep away from people who are different. There is more diversity now in private education than in state schools (income diversity, social diversity, ethnic diversity, sexual orientation diversity, religious diversity, and more).