Who saw BBC 2 Grammar schools - who will get in " last night?

[Foxy333]

Watched this last night with interest. We're not in Grammar school area and generally I think it was / is a bad system that works for the top abilities but not for the middle and lower ones. However I've seen my daughter suffer in years 7 to 9 or a comprehensive from not being stretched and teachers concentrating on the most demanding pupils who need lots of help and ignoring the quiet well- behaved pupils who going to pass GCSE's anyway. Often some pupils disrupt the class and the whole class gets punished.

They only set them for 2 subjects and I've heard that's changing in future to one. so I see why a Grammar would suit some. But why cant all schools be good. Is it stricter discipline that's needed?

Felt for the children in the program, so young to face this divisive test.

Green cares about her children. Those whose children go to sec mods don't. Obvs.

What a crock.....

I will be paying for 11+ tutoring for a year for my bright DC at the start of Y5. I will do this, not because the system is fair, it's clearly not, but because that is the best option for my child.

What I would rather do is have a range of fantastic comprehensives capable of helping every child reach their true potential to choose from.

Unfortunately years of underfunding and a postcode lottery mean that I will have to stick to the grammar system, but I really shouldn't have to. Condemning 75% of children to a second class education should not be acceptable.

No one can argue realistically that it's a fair system, but in the absence of a fair system everyone with children clever enough in grammar areas will surely choose grammar. It doesn't make it right though.

"fuck everyone else".

I have a duty to MY children.

[shrug]

Loud and clear

Toots, I don't blame parents for sending DCs to grammars, it's understandable.

However what I don't understand is how some people can't or won't acknowledge how unfair it is.

It's not about not sending your kids to a grammar. No one is saying Green that you should have turned down a place.

But can you not see that whilst your kids did very nicely out of it, the majority do not? And that as Toots says, we should have a range of comps in all areas instead of a 2 tier system.

I agree velvet. If you have a bright child you have a choice, if you don't, in some areas, your child is automatically given a lesser education.

Surely everyone can see that's not right?

The problem is, it suits right wing ideology and the people who hold the power in this country, which is why nothing changes.

Unfortunately, I feel I am forced to be a hypocrite, by sending my child (if they pass!) to a grammar.

The entire fucking system is unfair and significantly disadvantages any child who hasn't been fortunate tutored enough to pass the entrance exam. I want a high standard of education for every child, not just those very selected few. The two tier system illustrated in the documentary and the idea that some of those kids have voiced that they are failures if they haven't passed the exam are heartbreaking and made me so angry.

In Bexley pretty much all children who pass the 11plus are tutored from y3. Or go to private prep. Or both.

Children who pass without extensive tutoring are a very small minority.

My kids weren't tutored

I take it that you think the vast majority of DCs at the grammar school were not tutored to get in?

The reality is that the vast majority of the children who go to grammar school would have done well whatever school they went to, because they're the academically minded ones with supportive parents. They're unlikely to be harmed by a comprehensive education, whereas the secondary modern children are likely to benefit from a more representative cohort in their school.

(FWIW dd is just leaving a comprehensive where 40% of yr 7s in her cohort had a reading age below 8 years on entry - reluctant to tempt fate but fingers crossed she will still have got extremely decent GCSEs!)

Completely aside, they did have the most delightfully charming four children for their programme :)

It's not so much about tutoring or not tutoring. It's about some children will never be bright enough for the Grammar opportunity, tutored or not. This is what is inherently unfair.

Green, you we're just lucky you had bright children and they were lucky that they had a parent prepared to put the effort in.

But it shouldn't depend on luck, should it? Every child should have a right to an education which enables them to reach their true potential. This is not possible in our current system.

I think one of the messages that should come from the program is that tutoring is actually not going to help a very significant number of the children, because they simply are mid-stream in terms of academic ability. No matter what level of tutoring the 11+ exam will generally find the level of capability of the child. That is why I was so pleased for the little girl called Summer. Had an older sister at the grammar to look up to, did no real extra work or tutoring but still got the pass mark because she was clearly a bright kid.
I will be interested to see next week, whether the system still comes up to bite some on the * in that there are more who have passed the 11+ than there are available places in the grammar school.

Exactly what tootastic says.

Ethically, I don't agree with the system but I have to buy into it as the alternatives are quite dismal.

The way I see it is that grammars are justified because they benefit poor clever kids.

Except they don't because so many kids now are tutored or privately educated to pass. So the disadvantaged kids don't pass in the first place.

But beyond that...how is it right that we have a 2 tier education system anyway? Why is a child who passes more deserving of a decent education than one who doesn't?

Yes I'm the same Bacon, I'll reluctantly buy into it, whilst voting for change.

"Why is a child who passes more deserving of a decent education than one who doesn't?"
^^ This

Surely the question that should be asked is why is the teaching in a secondary modern so different to that of a comprehensive school in a non-selective area? It's not the fault of the grammar schools it's that there is something inherently wrong with the rest. At the high school I worked at the top maths sets were pretty much all As and A*s - on a par with middle sets in a grammar. And that seems about right to me.

What's the difference in setting children and splitting them between selective schools? Bottom set in the grammar will be below the top set in the high school and that's fine. In reality there won't be many children who would be more than a few sets up or down across their subjects. So why shouldn't they go to schools in different buildings?

With so many schools becoming academy trusts now grammars and non-selective schools are governed by the same policies anyway.

Green just wanted to say I understand where you’re coming from. When you’ve hit rock bottom and seen the worst of people to fight against that and make the situation better for you and your children takes balls.

My daughter is in a Grammar it’s a good school for her, her friends are in a non Grammar but selective school or in private.

The local comp is poor on academic results but has a great success in vocational training and art and in particular drama and theatre which the Grammar is lacking in.

the 11+ exam will generally find the level of capability of the child

It is not a nationally standardised exam which is why a DC may get a Grammar place in one area but not in another. The level of capability required varies hugely from area to area and from school to school.

did no real extra work

So what were they doing at "the work room". Were the CGP work books not real extra work?

she was clearly a bright kid

She was clearly a well supported DC. Her parents had been through the process with the older DC and certainly knew which material to use for practice. She was proud of her collection of books in her room.

My DS failed his 11+ and it was horrible getting the results. He cried so much and was so disappointed with himself. It was heartbreaking!