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Who saw BBC 2 Grammar schools - who will get in " last night?

852 replies

Foxy333 · 30/05/2018 15:31

Watched this last night with interest. We're not in Grammar school area and generally I think it was / is a bad system that works for the top abilities but not for the middle and lower ones. However I've seen my daughter suffer in years 7 to 9 or a comprehensive from not being stretched and teachers concentrating on the most demanding pupils who need lots of help and ignoring the quiet well- behaved pupils who going to pass GCSE's anyway. Often some pupils disrupt the class and the whole class gets punished.

They only set them for 2 subjects and I've heard that's changing in future to one. so I see why a Grammar would suit some. But why cant all schools be good. Is it stricter discipline that's needed?

Felt for the children in the program, so young to face this divisive test.

OP posts:
Piggywaspushed · 19/06/2018 17:56

Many many parents do not want their weak/ SEN children in specialised schools. It's the inclusion agenda.

There is actually a very small number of children who 'purposely' disrupt.

stringmealong · 19/06/2018 18:12

I don't understand why parents of SEN would not want specialist teaching in a specialist environment- surely we all want what is best for our child? Inclusion & the same education for all encompasses everything that is wrong with our school system. Nobody gets what they need!

Piggywaspushed · 19/06/2018 18:15

Many parents simply would not agree with that assertion.

Piggywaspushed · 19/06/2018 18:16

There would be an awful lot of different schools under your system! All beginning at 11?

cantkeepawayforever · 19/06/2018 18:28

The bottom 10% I am talking about are those who purposely disrupt!

Do you mean that you believe all of the bottom 10% purposely disrupt?

Or you are proposing a specialist school for those who are in the bottom 10% AND purposely disrupt?

IME, disruptive children are not always - or in fact not even very often - those who are of low ability. Yes, some children with specific SEN are 'accidentally' disruptive [as opposed to purposely disruptive] because of the nature of their SEN. Some unsupported low ability children, particularly in secondary, may become highly disillusioned with education and become disruptive. However, very highly disruptive children - whether because of mental health issues, drug / alcohol addiction, lack of family support, deprivation of a variety of kinds, or simply those who cannot tolerate authority - can come from all ability levels. even when their attainment does not reflect their true ability, some of the most disruptive children are actually at least of average ability, and some may be potentially very bright indeed.

Conflation of 'low ability' with 'disruptive' is a really dangerous route to go down. Certainly IME in primary, the overlap between 'most disruptive' and 'lowest ability' is small.

stringmealong · 19/06/2018 18:41

Bottom 10% of behaviour! Then a different specialist school for those with diagnosed SEN so they are not disrupted by those who truly don't want to be there. If you think kids like the boy on the programme last week are few & far between you are living with your fingers in your ears. IME most bad behaviour comes from poor parent attitudes towards education & these kids really do need a different kind of education - preferably boarding!

Yes I know there would be a large variety of types of school in my ideal world but it's better than the current system & most parents do their best to send their kids to the best school they can find anyway regardless of distance! I am trying to extend the very successful outlook of kids that go to grammar into other specialisms. We all know that the main reason grammar kids do well is because they want to be there/have a sense of pride. Wouldn't it be lovely if 90% of our kids could feel that determination to do their best!

DinkyDaisy · 19/06/2018 18:44

Why all the exclamation marks...

Piggywaspushed · 19/06/2018 18:46

string : lots of us on here are teachers you know. We do know what we are talking about..

Piggywaspushed · 19/06/2018 18:48

Where is this money coming form for this boarding provision? How about the workhouse back? That's sort 'em Wink

stringmealong · 19/06/2018 19:03

When you've experienced the range of ages & types of schools that I've taught in I'll call you experienced. In the meantime, please tell me (other than the pitiful excuse of inclusion) why disruptive students should be kept in the classroom with those who want to achieve to drag everybody's scores down. I call that failing a whole cohort of kids & am very willing for my taxes to be spent on keeping them away from their bad influences (parents)

cantkeepawayforever · 19/06/2018 19:34

String,

The thing is with specialised schools - as with the bipartitite selective system - is that they don't acknowledge either the variation within a specific SEN diagnosis, nor the fact that a child can have multiple SENs (or a mix of acute SEN and very high ability in one or a number of areas).

I am going to use the example of visual impairment, just for the sake of argument, though the examples below would also apply to any other specific SEN.

Within visual impairment, there is a huge range of 'ability' - from mild short sight or astigmatism, through colour blindness, acute short sight, partial sightedness of different degrees, all the way through to total blindness. Where should the line be drawn for 'specialist schooling? Partial sightedness? Total blindness? Somewhere in between? If theer is going to be an 'absolute standard' for admission to specialist schooling, there will be children of almost identical sight on either side of the cut-off, but one would stay in mainstream and the other would be sent to a specialist school.

Also, consider the other needs of the child. If a child is blind AND deaf, do they attend the specialist school for the blind, or the one for the deaf? If they are blind and autistic, or blind and cognitively impaired, or blind and have a physical disability or cerebral palsy, which SEN 'wins' in terms of which specialist school they attend? Or is there a non-specialist 'school fro all children with all SEN', in which case how is that better than mainstream? Or alternatively, is there a proliferation of tiny acutely specialised schools - one for the deaf, one for the blind, one for the deaf blind, one for the autistic blind - to which children have to travel huge distances?

In addition, why should the child be defined by their disability rather than their ability? What about a child who is blind but Oxbridge material? Blind but musically gifted? Should they be educated as 'blind' or as 'able'? Will a specialist school for the blind have the facilities to teach a very able child as well as the neighbouring mainstream school with much larger numbers? Would they be as able to give the musically gifted child the education they needed as a music school?

As I say, this argument applies across the board, to all SEN. Yes, co-location of some specialist provision with mainstream schools may well be a sensible way of dealing with children with very severe SEN. However saying that 'any child with any SEN should expect to attend a specialist school' is nonsense.

Piggywaspushed · 19/06/2018 19:37

string been teaching 26 years. You?

Piggywaspushed · 19/06/2018 19:39

I also know disruptive children with very helpful parents who are very concerned and involved .

And I cannot believe someone who works in education calls inclusion a pitiful excuse

stringmealong · 19/06/2018 20:11

Common sense seems to have been lost here. Of course some sen kids would get in to other specialist schools - nobody would be discouraged from applying. But I stand my ground regarding disruptive behaviour. I am sure any parent with any sense would see that if their child is disruptive they remove any chance of anybody else or themselves to concentrate & learn. Nobody with any sense would wish this situation on anyone! Before a child like that can learn anything they need to be able to function in that environment. It might be the case that the child can only focus for 10 minutes per day so why would you sit them in s classroom all day long? A waste of time. A friend of mine went to one of the few specialist boarding schools for disruptive children for a number of years. Best thing that ever happened to him. Spent most of his days doing productive physical things & only a very small amount of time on academics on a one to one basis. Very supportive parents & he now runs an incredibly successful business.
& yes I have taught in pretty much every kind of school for 20 something years & studied education extensively

cantkeepawayforever · 19/06/2018 20:16

It might be the case that the child can only focus for 10 minutes per day so why would you sit them in s classroom all day long?

I have taught a (very able, but with a combination of SENs) child with an attention span counted in seconds, who accessed the mainstream curriculum very successfully with 1:1 full time support, achieving well within and in some cases above the standard expected for their age.

Can you remind me why you think they needed to be in a specialist school, rather than appropriately supported in mainstream?

cantkeepawayforever · 19/06/2018 20:22

I think you have to distinguished between

  • Unavoidable, un-willed disruptive behaviour due to SEN (should be managed through appropriate SEN support)
  • Disruptive behaviour that is due to the circumstances around the child (best addressed by addressing the whole family and its issues)
  • Disruptive behaviour that could be avoided through more appropriate curriculum and behaviour management (developments in e.g. GCSEs are wholly counterproductive in this case, and curriculum design / school accountability measures need to be looked at)
  • Genuinely willed, and chosen disruptive behaviour (this is the only case in which I would agree with a poster way upthread who talked about PRU-like temporary specialist schools, both to manage such students and also train staff from other schools as to appropriate behaviour management)
stringmealong · 19/06/2018 20:23

Can you be 100% sure that this child did not disrupt the attention span of others? Can you be sure he wouldn't have done better accessing this 1 to 1 help without being in a classroom with others? I obviously don't know him, but I know many in mainstream who are literally climbing the walls after 10 minutes or even worse are completely disengaged with the whole system. Why make these kids go through it when they are very obviously unhappy or not learning?

stringmealong · 19/06/2018 20:25

Unavoidable disruptive behaviour due to SEN - is completely avoidable by using a more tailored education not mainstream!!!

cantkeepawayforever · 19/06/2018 20:30

String,

If I were to remove everyone in my classroom who never disrupts anyone, 100% of the time, it would be rather empty.....

Are you now suggesting full-time individual, solo education for such children, such that they don't disrupt anyone at all for one second?

Or do you think they don't deserve mainstream education (that meets their educational needs, and in which they and others succeed) because they require 1:1 help to access it, and should therefore be removed to another institution where the others 'deserve to be disrupted' or 'it won't matter if they are disrupted'?

cantkeepawayforever · 19/06/2018 20:33

So you are saying that a very able child, with very high needs, should be removed from mainstream classrooms - rather than having their needs met, and potentially disruptive behaviour fully managed, minute by minute, through 1:1 support within that classroom EVEN THOUGH their educational needs could not be met in the type of specialist 'school for the badly behaved' that you suggest?

stringmealong · 19/06/2018 20:35

As I say - common sense applies. But why see 'inclusion' with 1 to 1 help as the benchmark for good education? Surely if somebody needs continuous 1 to 1 help to access education you are better tailoring their education to their needs?

cantkeepawayforever · 19/06/2018 20:36

Oops, sorry, error in the first line of earlier post

'If I were to keep in my classroom only those who never disrupt anyone, 100% of the time, it would be rather empty....'

stringmealong · 19/06/2018 20:36

There are plenty that homeschool or otherwise to gain the same effect

cantkeepawayforever · 19/06/2018 20:39

String,

The education is tailored to their needs:

  • Their needs are for a good age appropriate academic curriculum.
  • Their barriers to accessing that education are their SENs.
  • Those barriers are surmountable using a full-time 1:1

Again, by analogy to sensory impairment, considering a very able deaf child:

  • Their needs are for a good age appropriate academic curriculum.
  • Their barriers to accessing that education are their deafness.
  • Those barriers are surmountable using a full-time sign language interpreter.

Why would you suggest a specialist school in either case?

cantkeepawayforever · 19/06/2018 20:42

So who would you suggest home education for?

The child with SEN or the children who you feel need a classroom 100% free of any disruption or distraction?

Why? Almost all of those children had 2x working parents, and a need for a social as well as an educational curriculum. Why should any of those children be told to home educate unless it is absolutely their free choice and the best option for their child and family? (I speak as a teacher and ex home educator here)

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