Who saw BBC 2 Grammar schools - who will get in " last night?

[Foxy333]

Watched this last night with interest. We're not in Grammar school area and generally I think it was / is a bad system that works for the top abilities but not for the middle and lower ones. However I've seen my daughter suffer in years 7 to 9 or a comprehensive from not being stretched and teachers concentrating on the most demanding pupils who need lots of help and ignoring the quiet well- behaved pupils who going to pass GCSE's anyway. Often some pupils disrupt the class and the whole class gets punished.

They only set them for 2 subjects and I've heard that's changing in future to one. so I see why a Grammar would suit some. But why cant all schools be good. Is it stricter discipline that's needed?

Felt for the children in the program, so young to face this divisive test.

@letstalk

Primary schools teach literacy and maths, they don't teach "verbal and non verbal reasoning". It's like assessing people's intelligence on their ability to do sudoku and crossword puzzles from what I remember. That's not what primary schools should be teaching.

I failed the 11+ , but the same year got full academic and music scholarships to private schools, and ended up going to a specialist music school. At least the academic scholarship exams were related to what I actually learnt in school. Plenty of intelligent people fail 11+, has nothing to do with primaries.

Maybe they've changed the exams now though.

letstalk

11+ passes aren't an indication of the primary school, but of the parents and the amount of private coaching that they can afford. At least in the county I know best, state primares aren't allowed to teach for the 11+ (verbal & non-verbal reasoning) and must teach the national curriculum instead. Children preparing for the 11+ either attend private primaries or have paid-for or 'DIY' tutoring.

If the 11+, everywhere, tested children on the national curriculum for Y5 and the first couple of weeks of year 6, and nothing more, then of course pass rates could be an indication of teaching of that curriculum in the primary school. Since it tests something different - often VERY different - nothing about the primary (except the socio-economic background of its pupils, as it may well be that they could not afford, or select, private tutoring or have parents with the educational background to DIY) can be deduced from the 11+ pass rate.

Tanisha's mum is dreadful. Poor girl is going to spend her life with her self esteem in the toilet just because she (very obviously) won't be allowed to do Further Maths A level. What if she prefers OMG humanities subjects??

Poor Tanisha. It was clear that the teacher was almost steering her away from maths A level let alone FM.

The scariest part for me was the lacm of teacher and that they hadn't divided the class before then!!

*lack

Deluded to think she could/should take FM A-level when averaging roughly 6 at GCSE.

I think she mentioned Maths at ICL - entry is A star, A star, A!

It's good to have aspirations - but make them, at least, semi achievable.

I don't think Tanisha was wanting to do maths at UCL because she had a burning desire to do it, I think it's because her mum was telling her she should...

And I felt so sorry for those bright kids in that science class at Erith who had spent half of year 11 without a teacher :-(

Yeah well you know spiv boy was swimming in applications : he just wasn't getting the 'right teachers'. Bless his heart.

Piggy. What if he/somebody similar asked you to be their head of at significantly more than you earn now ! Would you still call them/him 'Spiv Boy' or would you take the opportunity.

No, I wouldn't work at a grammar school (or in a grammar school area) and definitely not for him.

As you keep telling us, grammar schools are poorly funded and someone pointed out their salary bill is lower than Erith's so I doubt he is throwing money at those people fortunate enough to be good enough to work at his school.

It wasn't me that coined the term Spiv for him. And he definitely seems like one.

Also... I am not motivated by earnings.

I felt so sorry for those kids without a science teacher. From the last two episodes it doesn't seem like Erith has much respect for their students, so how can they expect respect back - that's what bothers me the most about this school.

It's 9 years away, but this program has made me worried about DS and secondary schools

Really? Those teachers were trying really hard in the last episode? Against many odds.

It seems lots of people on here are determined to see this as Erith's fault.

I found the rhetoric and divisive talk that even the student use around their schools quite troubling tbh.

And the girls in this episode were actually really respectful to their teachers and grateful to the head of science (who listened to them and took action) for his help, so I don't get the mutual respect comment at all.

There is a big problem in science recruitment , exacerbated in Kent by the sec modern/grammar system, as was stated a few times.

I thought Erith handled it badly. All too late. It was a GCSE class,what was the head doing? The obvious thing was to split the class. They will be getting extra money and support for being RI. Bumping up classes by 5 and sticking in a couple of TAs If needs be was pretty obvious.

Re recruitment grammars struggle too. My ds hasn't had a language teacher all year. His Year 9 French provision has been dire so he's dropping it. The recruitment problem can be North South,London elsewhere, low aspiration non aspirational area. Said programme was more than a little disingenuous to infer it was a grammar school issue. There are so few of them anyway on a population level I doubt they have much of an impact,far less than those who want to teach in high aspiration London schools away from the north or coastal areas with low aspirations.

You think there are TAs everywhere cow ???
They are the first to be losing jobs in the cutbacks.

I think you are determined to suggest that Sec Mods have it easier somehow because they are RI and get mythical 'extra funding'. Being RI might bring some so called support but it doesn't bring money.

People will teach in the area they live in. But many people would avoid a job in a secondary modern. Why you can't see the issues at Erith as symptomatic of that is beyond me. There were no classes at Townley seen without teachers or with a succession of overseas supply.

We'll take a trip up North or to coastal areas with low aspirations, few people want to work there away from the SE. There is apparently a successful sec mod down the road from Erith,bet their recruitment is easier than many schools up North, but hey who cares?

The fact is in high achieving classes they shouldn't need TAs or extra money as is pointed out continuously re the same demographic in grammars. At the end of the day the head should have lead and stepped in far earlier.

Splitting the class was an obvious solution.

I thought it was interesting the grammar school got the gap year student to teach the younger ones. I’d love to know what they were paying her as obviously wouldn’t have been a qualified teacher. It was clear though that that school wouldn’t have been leaving year 11s without a teacher.

I know all about the coastal areas,thanks, and they aren't all in the North. try Great Yarmouth some time!

I don't think grammars would be a solution to that , however.

Splitting the class was an obvious solution and it was exactly what they did after a few weeks of supply : it wasn't a whole term, or anything near it.

It's funny how so many people on MN are pro setting by ability and small class sizes , but suddenly it is OK to halt that.

And it's not people from the SE who need to commute miles up north to solve the recruitment crisis there (or want to) : but if you do want to argue, the North is now the place getting government funding leaving East Anglia as a wilderness.

user we didn't see them but there must have also been a qualified teacher in the room, otherwise that would be illegal.

Those three children are likely to be top set in a Secondary Modern, the very ones who are a bit unlucky! Hence my reasoning for a 40% selective model. This would 'hoover' up children such as those three, whose education had been disturbed.

A 40% selective system could also offer '4' of entry points to a grammar school .

1. Those being the traditional 11+
2. An extra class being added at year 9 offering 30 extra places (the entry being based on a combination of classwork and exam based on work done at year 7&8)
3. Entry at year 10 lets say an extra 10 places for children that 'blossomed ' academically in year 9 similar admissions criteria to year 9.
4. Sixth Form admission. This would give a fair chance to children to access grammar school , it would not be based on just one day or one shot. This system would also take in to account 'late developers 13/14 as opposed to just11 .

Piggy. Yeah laws ..

However, the year 7 Townley pupils didn't seem disadvantaged having a year '14' pupil teaching them 'key level 2' stuff. She probably has more knowledge than many teacher. Actually I bet many of the year 7 enjoyed being taught by someone the same age as the older sister !

It would have been a different story if they asked a gap year student to teach a 'disruptive' and academically challenged class though .