Who saw BBC 2 Grammar schools - who will get in " last night?

[Foxy333]

Watched this last night with interest. We're not in Grammar school area and generally I think it was / is a bad system that works for the top abilities but not for the middle and lower ones. However I've seen my daughter suffer in years 7 to 9 or a comprehensive from not being stretched and teachers concentrating on the most demanding pupils who need lots of help and ignoring the quiet well- behaved pupils who going to pass GCSE's anyway. Often some pupils disrupt the class and the whole class gets punished.

They only set them for 2 subjects and I've heard that's changing in future to one. so I see why a Grammar would suit some. But why cant all schools be good. Is it stricter discipline that's needed?

Felt for the children in the program, so young to face this divisive test.

I think everyone agrees that your son was badly served by his comprehensive school, lets and are very pleased tgt he is doing so well now. But I am not sure how his story fits into this debate. There are crap schools of all types and in all sectors-nobody is denying that.

Incidentally "dregs" was a word used by a (I think) now departed prolific poster on this topic to describe the children she was intensively coaching her own dcs to avoid. It is not a word with any good associations and it is hard to see how anyone could use it without realising it would give offence.

you keep assuming I think my son could get in to a grammar school despite being '17

I think it is a fair assumption as you seem to be suggesting your support for Grammar schools is based on your DCs experience at a comp. The natural assumption therefore, is that DCs like your son would do better at a Grammar. For this to be the case those DCs would need to pass the test to get into the Grammar.

I have also highlighted that the 11 plus is sat at the beginning of yr6, so before you DC was "failed by the comp".

Bert: I could see Bradley was being put into a "unit" in the school, but this is not the same as a special school. He is still in a mainstream school without specialist teaching and behaviour specialists. Erith will not have the same resources or suitable qualifications held by staff. It is like a "holding" unit to stop the children disrupting everyone else, but it is not meeting all the needs of the child. If the unit was brilliant, why are 25 chlidren being rounded up every day from maistream lessons? It is clearly not effective.

Regarding Bucks: There is a county-wide Grammar school system and all children take the tests unless the parents opt them out. The secondary moderns are rebranded "all ability" schools. This means a few parents choose them in preference to the grammars. It is a very small number of parents though. They are definitely not comprehensives in the true sense of the word because the grammar school children are missing.

However, I have dispel the myth that children in secondary moderns are not likely to get more than level 6 in the GCSEs. In Bucks, because the world and his wife can sit the 11 plus from neighbouring counties, there are many higher achieving Buckinghamshire children who do not get a grammar school place. The ability to pass the 11 plus is not the same as SATS. There are quite a few secondary moderns with more than 30% high achieving children. This will match many comprehensive schools, and is better than some. There are children within this group who can get the higher grades but possibly not in every subject. The tutoring of children for the 11 plus means the edges are very blurred between the lower achieving "high achievers" in the grammars and the higher achieving "high achievers" in the secondary moderns.

Yes, I did say 'most' would get 6 -3. I am aware they are outliers.

I did think Waddesdon genuinely was all ability?

The unit you are thinking of (in the huts) is not the same as the drama class Bradley was in!

The 2016/17 Y11 data on Erith shows that 37.5% of children were High Achievers and 7.1% were Low Achievers. 17.2% free school meals. The high achievers are clearly not achieving well enough from the data. However, Ofsted have commented on quality of teaching and setting work that is not challenging enough for the higher achievers. Obviously the programme talked about behaviour, but this was not the thrust of the Ofsted report regardig low achievement by the High achievers.

Waddesdon School is a C of E Secondary Modern. It has a tiny catchment area and "selects" other pupils on C of E attendance. It is around 4 miles from Aylesbury Grammar, Aylesbury High and Sir Henry Floyd Grammar School. I used to live in Waddesdon! Believe me, the vast majority of chidren who pass the 11 plus go to one of the grammar schools. A tiny number may choose Waddesdon over a grammar and its parent body is very middle class Church going parents (except from its tiny catchment area which is only a handful of small villages). Children from some villages have to drive by it to go to secondary school in Aylesbury. It has many High Achievers who did not quite get into the grammars. I now live around 12 miles from Waddesdon and children from my current village go there. It pulls the brightest "nearly" children from other secondary schools, particularly in Aylesbury and Buckingham, provided the parents have found God for a bit! (And they do!).

The "Unit" is still not a special school with low pupil teacher ratios and trained SEN teachers in emotional and behaviour difficulties. It cannot be funded via the normal funding of a mainstream school to provide this. Children like Bradley need more and exclusion rates show it does not work.

I’m not saying that the unit was the best possible place for Bradley. I was replying to the posters who were saying that comprehensive and secondary modern schools are full of children like him disrupting ordinary lessons.

An schools really can’t win- they are criticicised for leaving disruptive children in mainstream classes and for pulling them out!

I'm just watching an episode now. Haven't read the whole thread so apologies firbajy repetition.

I really felt sorry for chi chi. She was being told to go here there and everywhere and somehow despite going where was told she was still in trouble she couldn't seen to get anything right. Got the impressions she's nothing more than a toy to play with for everyone. Wind her up and watch her go. Maybe it wasbthe editing but really did seen that kids and teachers were in her face.

And moesha...well anyone woukd think she was selling drugs by the bike sheds or something. Off the rails? Seriously?

I felt for Bradley he clearly isn't coping. The dad seems sweet but wet.

Worrying how many kids in the grammar school are literally worrying themselves sick.

Waddesdon, Wellington and Coombe Girls school are 'selective' moderns hence why there are successful . They have through location, Religion, or reputation managed to ensure a culture of learning.

The figures for Erith school prove it is not really a 'deprived' school nor a school without a large no of high achieving students !

The breakdown of the numbers for Erith school suggest a cohort and FSM % broadly in line with an average Comprehensive school ! It is far less 'deprived' than the schools chosen for the educating series.

Yes, letstalk, and that is why Erith was RI in 2016.

ChiChi was one of their brighter students but they could not seem to manage her effectively either. The teacher that tried to have a reasonable conversation was interupted by the military style one who was her boss and effetively ensured she was in further trouble. The military style teacher was noticable quieter around the DH in the meeting when she was not so abrupt or unreasonable. I would not want my children being taught by her.

Moesha's crimes were not handing in homework or walking on the grass ! Moesha commented how strict Townley was in comparison with other schools . In time she will be highly grateful she went to such a high achieving school with 'DETENTION' for walking on the grass !

In fact at the end she realised it was a privilege to go to such a school, and understood why she should stay there for sixth form !

Perhaps her parents explained the 'culture' shock she would have. This being at a school/college that didn't give a toss if you did homework or attendance was 50% !

I think a programme comparing a grammar school and a RI secondary modern is pretty pointless, really.

Where is attendance 50%!? Are you just making things up now??

We also saw no evidence of a school not giving a toss about homework...

You are right then she did come to appreciate he school :and so she should; it is a lovely school. But, again, she was pretty much guessing about other schools.

Did you miss the bit where Chi Chi mentioned her Erith educated sister got 8A*s?

I have to say I found that student services woman to be rather

I know what she said after was that what they were feeling was real although was caused by the anxiety. But it came across when she was talking to the kids that she was basically just telling them it was all in their heads.

I guess I would just have liked to have seen an offer to talk to someone or get to the bottom of why they were feeling the way they were.

The lovely lady talking to Bradley about his dog on the other hand seemed to genuinely care.

And why was moesha pulled out a test they could have asked about the homework after.

And chi chi should have been allowed to go to the revision class. Im.not surprised she had no idea whether she was coming or going. Was dealt with terribly

And why weren't the kids just sent outside to wait for "patrol"

The waiting around and heavy entrance they insisted on making was far more disruptive in some cases.

We don't know what school Chichi sister went to for sixth form ! God knows why her parents chose 'Erith' for Chichi and her sister even if they failed their 11+ !

There are other schools available that perhaps require a bus journey each morning....

I am also surprised that in Learning Support they have full-time SENCO, one part-time teacher and another part time teacher to look after access for Sen children. This is very small for a 1800 pupil school.

lets you are blinded to facts. Chi Chi's sister got 8 A*s: that is GCSE!!

Chi Chi herself used that to make a point that students shouldn't be consigned to 'dumping grounds' or seen as failures because of an 11+ exam and felt that her sister had done better than most in a grammar school had. and she is quite right.

Lots of armchair critics! Perhaps we need to walk a mile in those teachers' and support staff's shoes before we judge their exact actions? Whilst I agree with a ,lot of what you say giles it is all edited.

bubbles, that may be all the school can afford. LS departments, sadly, are where a lot of the cutbacks are feeling full force.

I imagine if they were sent outside they would either a) run off or b) make silly faces through windows and disrupt the class from outside!

I did assume some of it was editing.

Chi chi seemed really articulate and smart and I did get the impression that some how , be that through issues with other kids or possibly teachers or maybe even circumstances at home who knows. Just almost felt as if being disruptive had some what become an assumption as opposed to a fact as that was her assigned role now. Hard to explain exactly what I mean really, I don't approve of any rude or disruptive behaviour but I do wonder if perhaps she was around far more children who were hard working and well behaved like at the grammar school, if she would really have the same problems. That she's a victim of her surroundings more than others would be.

Again I could be completely wrong but the way it was shown, it came across as if they had made their minds up about her . She was in tears in that office and they didn't seem to care. They were just so used to just snapping or jumping on her. She couldn't even breathe right by the end.

I mean it might totally he deserved who knows but it was uncomfortable viewing

that may be all the school can afford. LS departments, sadly, are where a lot of the cutbacks are feeling full force

Erith do not appear to be short of funds for staff: the teacher pupil ratio is 15.7 (Townley 18.8), teaching assistants 37.5 full time equivalent (Townley 6.9), average teacher salary £43,307 (Townley £37,495)

Well, Townley would hardly need as many TAs!!

The TP ratio rarely tells full story.

maybe it's because I'm a teacher but I have met many a Chi Chi in my day... there is always a different story!!