Slightly loathe to start this thread .. but I honestly want to know with regards to Private Education...

[Twiglett]

I can understand when people say they choose private education for their particular child

But I'm not sure I totally understand how to analyse one's child to see if they would be better in private education

what are the key areas of a child to look at (in your opinion) .. and which ones would be better served in a private rather than a state school (again in your opinion)

I'm not trying to be contentious .. I should just like to know how I should look at my 6 year old who's school life is rather a closed book really

I think most parents I've known who have paid school fees have made huge sacrifices in order to do so like buying smaller houses, wives returning to work solely to pay fees, no holidays abroad etc. Other families - i remember sailing with one once both doctors wanted lots of spare money to go on lovely holidays with or without the children and no way would they spend that money on the children's education whereas other 2 doctor parent families often would pay. If you're not socialist I wonder when it becomes selfish of the parents to put their own hobbies, cars, holidays etc above their children's education.

I don't think it's necessarily about being socialist. You might think that to live in a horrible area is worse than attending an average state school. You might think family life is enhanced by enough space and the big house is therefore worth more than the private education.

I agree it's hard to see sailing holidays as vital but I guess some people do.

Xenia - actually, we have that issue to contend with in our family. My partner wants all the children to have an excellent education (school and out of school/holiday activities, university abroad in due course) and foots the bill for everything willingly. His ex wife doesn't give a damn about those things and would rather have holidays for herself, spend a lot of time at the hairdresser and beautician, buy clothes etc.

I hope the children will realise when they are older who made the sacrifices.

Dogsbollox - that's interesting. They've got to win other kids over somehow.

Anna, I fear they won't - do my children really appreciate that I do theri 365 a year care and financial support and their father doesn't see or support them and instead has all the family money as it were? I think children take for granted what they have but might equally later like the absent parent who left the other parent to 100% of everything for 10 hard years and then comes back saying sorry and all is well so I suppose you do what you think is right for your children because you think it's right but not necessarily because they'll appreciate you for it. I would love ot have 48 hours here a year witout any of the 5 children here and yet so many divorced parents get that every other weekend.

Yes, agree about sailing etc. As we know vast bulk of parents in the UK can hardly afford to live never mind school fees which is pie in the sky if you're on the average wage of £20k or less.

But are we saying a mother (or stay at home father) is selfish to laze at home and play with children in holidays when she could be working full time, coping with her husband in organising holiday care and sending them to a really good school? One full time wage will usually pay for 2 sets of private day school fees.

Do children like their parents to make sacrifices?

Hmm. I don't know. For example, my stepsons are both envious that my daughter has her mother at home with her and we talk quite freely about the financial/security issues for women surrounding that, and they talk about that with their mother too. And we do tell them who pays for what, and why. They get pissed off with their mother who won't buy them clothes because she'd rather go on holiday (she's quite open about this with them).

Xenia - can't you leave your children for the weekend? Surely three adult children ought to be able to take care of two eight year olds for three days... When I was 18 I did a sole charge babysit for 10 days of two primary school children I was not related to.

You can come to Paris if you like...

Thanks. I did go skiing without them for a week in January but it was difficult and complicated to arrange. It would just be easier if it wasn't something I had to arrange and pay for but just a normal part of their existence with a father who has them to stay, not that they seem very bothered about it.

While I completely understand that you'd like their father to take them off your hands on a regular basis, I still can't help thinking that perhaps you're a bit too kind and generous. Surely if you are paying for the eldest three through university, the least they can do for you is look after themselves and the twins (including all shopping etc) for, say, four weekends and a week per year?

i have a problem, we live on a peninsular and there are only two secondary schools within walking distance, both local comps.

one is okay and the other a real dive (bullying, racism, thieving).

the other schools can be reached by bus and are private an all girls school and a mixed.

i can't afford the fees for the private schools, but have a feeling that the mixed would be perfect for my little ones (active, curious minds and into outdoor pursuits).

i could ask the wealthy in laws to pay, but should i?

Yes, true. If I had a boyfriend I'd probably have more incentive to go away. What I would prefer more would be to be in this house alone sometimes rather than me being away (and the two at home are very helpful - one boy now seems to cook for the twins every night at the moment so I'm not critiising their efforts particularly).

I understand the desire to be home alone entirely. I love being at home alone, and probably one of the issues I would find hardest to deal with were I to work full time would be never being alone.

cas, many grand parents do pay or help I think. I'm not sure I would as if all 5 children have 5 children that would be 25 sets!

Many parents move to be near good schools.

Lots of grandparents pay. Don't some people see it as a way of giving chilren their inheritance now rather than later and avoiding inheritance tax?

If you have adult children at home that you are supporting, at the very least they ought to be cooking/washing/tidying up.

You do seem to be a VERY generous mother. Maybe it's time to think of yourself a bit more? Your own time and space to do whatever you want is important...

SweetyDarling I wouldn't say money is no object but we coulf afford school fees and varoius relatives have also offered to pay so my choice not to go private is not an economic one.

This thread is interesting. Some food for thought; would you be offended if a school excluded black people? Muslims? People with special needs? If you answered yes to any of those, would you be offended by a school that would only accept students whose parents could afford the fees -whatever the costs and sacrifices? Although i went to a 'good' private school I could see then how injust the systme was and didn't want to be part of it. yes there were some people who worked hard to pay the fees but really, we're not fooling anyone, there are many people who are excluded from private education due to lack of disposable income. BTW, I do value a family holiday as valuable - education doesn't belong in a classroom...What about using the money to create these family experiences? Sorry to reply late but yes, most of my experiences are in Aussie schools but I can assure you in my most 'difficult' school there are heaps of gorgeous students who work their buts off. I'd be proud of my boy if he could succeed there. If any teacher can't see that they need to get out of the game.

Isn't school not only about academic achievmnets but also social? In a state school surely you get to see lifes rich tapestry - children with special needs, clever people, not so clever people, rich people poor people. Can a private school really provide this?

No, you get much better experiences of that in private schools. Their work in the commuinty is second to none and children are given challenges and trips and opportunities to mingle with all kinds of children and peoples that you just don't get in your bog standard comp.

"would you be offended if a school excluded black people? Muslims? People with special needs? If you answered yes to any of those, would you be offended by a school that would only accept students whose parents could afford the fees -whatever the costs and sacrifices?"

Lots of mumsnetters will be in favour of church schools and some girls or boys only schools. The principle of exclusion is enshrined in English education tradition and law, isn't it? Many people in special groups want to stay in those groups even if it's some but not all blind children being better in schools for the blind or small special needs schools rather than integration. Obviously depends. What we need is choice and freedom. At the moment if you can afford £6 - £8k a year (or an expensive house in a nice region) you can buy a lot of choice in many regions but not otherwise.

I expect the new hindu state school we are getting locally will give preference to Hindus just as the muslim state school and indeed private school locally takes children of that faith and all those places are filled and the jewish schools too. It's not so much excluding on the grounds of religion or low IQ or where you live etc as inclusion only if you meet those criteria.

Are you trying to say that private schools churn out identikit products?

I don't think that school is the only or even the best way of experiencing life's rich tapestry. If your only experience ever of disability is one kid in your class who constantly irritates you, I don't think that that is enough tbh.

In terms of racial mix, my nearest state primary school is a CofE school with primarily white middleclass children with 2 or 3 black children in each class. Ds's class has 3 black boys, 4 Asian boys, 1 Spanish, 1 Greek (both not speaking English at home) and 7 white boys. The parents are all professionals barring I guess a plumber. But the children definitely are of mixed ability.

Looking at social mix is an interesting one. From what I have seen most schools seem to be so local that they represent a very narrow social mix. Eg in our middle class area most of the children are from middle-class home-owning familes, and there are very free chidlren on free school meals. But we have friends teaching nearby in schools in areas with very low home ownership and high FSM take-up (OK I have to put my hands up and say that I don't know any of the parents!). It does seem that even within the state system children from similar socio-economic circumstances end up together.

My own experience has been that we sent ds1 to a playgroup/nursery in an area near to where we used to live. In ds's 2nd year there I was the only first-time mother over the age of 30 (and the only other mother over 30 was sending her fourth child there), and we were the only graduate parents. I think that, wherever they are, children are made aware of differences, and in this situation ds1 came out very strongly with the idea that he was rich. Now whilst I definitely want ds1 to realise that not everyone in the world is in the same position that we are, neither did I want him being "labelled" by his playmates at such a young age. It also became a barrier to his friendships as some, though thankfully not all, of the mothers felt that they didn't want to do playdates. In some respect I can understand it - I was pretty close in age to their own mothers.

Having had that experience I am much happier being in a position where who I am and what we earn isn't an issue that affects the dcs. Yes they still have to learn about life's rich tapestry and where they fit in, but I'm not sure that school is always the best environment.

Twiglett, I have not read the full thread but answering to the inital post... we doid choose DS's school because we loved it, we couldn't stop smiling from the beginning to the end of the tour. If I had loved a state school as much as I liked this one, DS would have gone to a state school.

I'm sure that many state and private schools around the area may be as lovely as DS' but with this we found a "match" IYKWIM.

You're right that bright kids with supportive families will do well in any school. I went to a roughish state school (now is special measures) and came out with As and Bs at GCSE. Although there were many disruptive kids and not much individual attention or challenge to the more able the teachers were good at their job (as they almost always are in the state adn private sector) and I worked reasonably hard and had the help of my parents who are both teachers. I'm sure that my dds would replicate my success in a state school. BUT I know that although they'd come out with good exam results they'd have to put up with a lot of grief along the way (as I did) in terms of other disruptive kids who would bully them for wanting to learn, they would get little individual attention because they would be the quiet ones near the top of the class and they would get little challenge academically (I'll never forget having to plod through 101 Dalmations at age 11 while I was reading Jane Austen at home). That's why I've chosen private education for my dds. Exam results is only a small part of my reasoning which is more about them being happy, supported and academically engaged.

I repeat I do not think my children are special (except to me). They are bright and very well supported by their teacher parents who have encouraged them to have a love of books and be inquisitive about life etc. I think every child deserves the kind of attention, class sizes etc available at private schools in the state sector but sadly I know they many won't get them. As a teacher in the state sector I have evidence for this while I recognize that there are many brilliant state schools out there.

When I listen to parents of kids at state school regardless of the school's reputation or positition in the league tables, they have complaints which are more to do with other disruptive kids or teachers' lack of time for individual kids than poor teaching etc. For example, one of my colleagues' sons has been on the same reading level for 7 months even though she knows he can cope confidently with reading books 4 levels on. This is because his teacher has not heard him read due to lack of time and 30 in the class. And this in spite of her already complaining about this a year ago to the same teacher. I know this is just one example but you just don't hear this sort of stuff from parents whose kids are at private schools (at least not from any of the ones I know).