Are we wasting our money?

[angelnumber9]

It appears that every year the results gap between state and independent schools narrows and this seems even more defined with 2017 figures. Combined with the incentives that top universities give to state school students I am struggling to find good reasons to carry on paying our hard earned dosh for DC's education.
To give this some perspective I have checked out local independent school results and compared them with some of the state school alternatives and it makes interesting reading. I have said before that we are very lucky to have such a good collection of schools in Shropshire. It has to be said that we can only just afford the less expensive ones such as Wrekin or Shrewsbury High School and I appreciate that like all things you get what you pay for but if you care to cost it out purely on a results v price basis there seems very little point in spending your money.....or am I missing something really important?
Having watched selective schools like the gdst's Shrewsbury High school continue to plummet down the A level league tables for the last 5 years (from 63rd with 61% A/A in 2014 to 255th and 26% this year) I know that many parents are again asking what their money is being spent on. Especially when non selective schools such as Moreton Hall and Adcote are roaring ahead (Moreton is an all round school monumentally up 118 places to 91st place with 53%, more that twice that of its High School rival. State grammar schools like Newport Girls High, Adams and Thomas Telford score consistently above 50% A/A and at least four Shrewsbury Sixth form students have achieved Oxbridge places. The Marches sixth form has 22% and William Brooke's 24%. Shrewsbury School and Concord (like the High School selective but far more expensive) have broken their own records. Concord unbelievably managing 84% A/A with 45% at A. Shrewsbury School continue to publish detailed exam results and leavers destinations on their very informative website.
Perhaps I'm too caught up in figures but when Shrewsbury High School recently held an Oxbridge conference in an attempt to win an award (sadly I'm told none of their girls have secured offers there since 2015) I can understand why parents are livid. But they now have a new dance school so perhaps girls will be able to waltz their way into Oxbridge??? (sorry, couldn't resist!).
So I am very frustrated about it all and seriously considering cutting my losses. I hate to see our school fees being spent on ridiculous projects when the focus should be on raising standards. With what I would save in fees I could probably buy a small house which may be a far better investment for my children in the long term.........anyone?

Dear ChocolateWombat, your last post pretty much sums things up for me and how I feel. Decisions based on best information available at the time etc.
MaisyPops, the 'spin' being part and parcel of 'basic advertising' is not something I am prepared to tolerate when it affects the future of my children. It is unpalatable enough in politics and IMO has no place when making promises about children's education.

"the 'spin' being part and parcel of 'basic advertising' is not something I am prepared to tolerate when it affects the future of my children."
Although I agree with the sentiment I'm afraid that spin exists in even the most oversubscribed schools. Years ago we went on to see a very famous independent school which I suspect is one of the UK's most oversubscribed, and has outstanding results. I was totally stunned by hard they pushed it, and how incredibly image conscious they were. I've listened to heads in very over subscribed state schools giving their spiel to parents, same story.

The art of looking at schools in either sector is to get beyond the results and flannel and see whats really happening, and decide whether this school will suit your DC and you, not easy I know.

Don't get me started on schools who spin only 3 A levels being available to L6 pupils a A Very Good Thing.

Bollocks. You weren't doing it before and you're only doing it now due to budget constraints.

Ditto lack of choice at GCSE options. No triple science...

Fine. It can't be helped. But don't present it as Not Inportant.

gnome many universities seem to publish their criteria for making contextual offers - at least the RG ones we looked it did; around 15 or so before we narrowed down the choices. I forget which ones as contextual offers weren't one of the criteria we thought we needed to consider.

MaisyPops, the 'spin' being part and parcel of 'basic advertising' is not something I am prepared to tolerate when it affects the future of my children. It is unpalatable enough in politics and IMO has no place when making promises about children's education.
Ok so a school publishes it's A-C results and it's A/A rates but not it's A*-B results.
A-B in my opinion is a more interesting stat than A-C but they aren't going to put every breakdown out there.
Equally, they'll share destinations of recent leavers. But no way could my school reasonably publish the destinations of all 250 leavers.

You have to go into any decision knowing that the best front is on.

I always think of what students say on open evenings when they help: we show off real experiments in the science block but nobody in their right mind would think science will be setting things on fire every lesson for 5 years.

When you buy a house ypu know the estate agent might have used a wide angled lens etc. The dimensions are in the property spec but they've taken photos to make it look its best.

It's a fact of life.

Now if somewhere is deliberately misleading then it's an issue but it is naive to expect no polish on promotional material.

"Don't get me started on schools who spin only 3 A levels being available to L6 pupils a A Very Good Thing.

Bollocks. You weren't doing it before and you're only doing it now due to budget constraints."

I don't think only doing 3 is because of budget constraints

I thought this thread rang a bell so I did a search - angel has started a number of similar threads over the last 2 years bashing Shrewsbury High. This time last year she said her dd was boarding at Wrekin College, in year 7. Angel, what's going on? Why pretend to be a Shrewsbury High parent when you've previously said you decided against it?

I don't think value for money is possible, partially because you can't compare. No one ever knows how any given child would have done in another environment.

We have ended up paying when we didn't start off intending too, but unless we move areas, will probably continue to do so. This is because we think the average or slightly above average child ( which, frankly is A LOT of the population) will almsot certainly do better with smaller classes, more breath, more options for depth and high expectations/aspirations.

The super bright all-rounder will do well anywhere.
The internally motivated child will achieve their potential anywhere.
I'm not sure your more average, middling to low motivated child will.

Through no fault of the teachers, the state school ds1 started in (we moved him as he hated it, rather than for academic reasons at that point) seemed entirely focussed on getting everyone to a. minimum standard. This takes up so much time - in his prep he is getting his basic maths, literacy etc but also dedicated specialist teaching in music, ICT, history, geography, french. With the exception of french, ds1 absolutely loves he detail, range of topics and having lots of teachers who know about their subject. He is struggling with writing, and getting 1:1 help with this and self esteem work twice weekly has been very beneficial.

We are making sacrifices (house size primarily) to provide this but have decided that it is hte best option for ds at present.

"The super bright all-rounder will do well anywhere."
They might "do well" anywhere but this is more to education than doing well. In many cases and in my experience (again in both sectors) the super bright by which I mean those who are right of the normal spectrum may do well academically on terms of (I)GCSE's, A levels, etc but they are not simply exam machines, they like the average/ slightly above average need "smaller classes, more breath", and "more options for depth" and just because you're super bright doesn't means that you don't need high expectations and aspirations. These may not be the same high expectations and aspirations as most others e.g. 10 9's at GCSE as your going to walk these but the super bright still need them just tailored to them and their ability.

crazycrofter interesting.
Wrekin College claims on its website that its non selective, Shrewsbury High also publishes its results on its website, our local comp has better results. I accept that both have tried to be up beat about their results on their websites, Wrekin places a lot of emphasis on value added. But OP assuming you read these schools websites a well as visiting them were you really thinking that if you sent your DD to either of these that you were paying for a school rammed with pupils getting wonderful results and a high % going to Oxbridge?

Crazycrofter, please get your facts right. I haven't claimed to be a High School parent and certainly wouldn't want to be with all that's gone on. DD is, (about to be was), Y8 at Wrekin which has turned into a major disappointment. I do however have friends with DD's at the High School who are as worried as me about the whole results fiasco and the promises made. It is a disgrace and we now want to put some distance between us.

The top set of our local state secondary comp - I honestly couldn't tell the difference if they had been educated at a private school. They were extremely eloquent and bright. Girls have left this school with straight As and A*s. At another state comp nearby, their small sixthform sent 4 to Oxbridge. So in terms of results alone, I think £150,000 approx of 7 years education is an awful lot of money if you can get similar results for free in state. You buy private schools for the experience and personalised service. Not just for results.

We can afford private school but prefer to save the money we would have spent into a buy-to-let investment property for dc's future. We think 40+ years of enjoying their own property with our help for house deposits, is better than 7 years of private education ROI. But happiness is priceless and for that, if your dc is happy then you cannot put a £ on it.

"claiming to be selective, market themselves with the promise of achieving top university places for our children,"
But Wrekin College doesn't claim to be selective (according to it's website).
Were you really think paying to send your DD to this school guaranteed top results? As I said up thread even the top independent in the UK can't guarantee that let alone a non selective school.
Have you sadly fallen into the trap of thinking that paying always means amazing results?
I've only very briefly read their website but I get the impression they are offering a high value added and that they encourage and let children who may in other schools not get a chance at studying A level a chance even if they wont get brilliant results. Many may disapprove of this but ultimately if parents are prepared to pay for this then its up to them.
I'm not knocking the school by the in any way (I don't know it).

Well all I can say is your posts - here and on past threads - are very strange. You seem obsessed with Shrewsbury High. You barely mentioned Wrekin College here yet that's the school you're disappointed with? And if it's not even selective, why should its results be up there with Shrewsbury School's? Or the grammars, for that matter.

If you're not happy, move your daughter. But it's not really right to attack a school which you haven't even sent your children too. If your friends feel so strongly, they can do that!

I have no knowledge of any of these schools by the way!

CookieDoughKid, 'the experience and personalised service' you mention are sadly lacking. Even after my interventions it seems that my expectations were completely naive. As I said at the start, we will now consider following your example and perhaps invest in our DD's future by similar means. I am completely disillusioned by the whole thing and everything here has just confirmed my feelings. And I am certainly not alone in my disappointment, there are interesting times ahead.

I'm another who wasn't motivated by dd getting better results at a private. At least not better exam results. But neither do I buy the line that super bright kids do well anywhere. They might get the same exam results anywhere, unless of course you consider the subjects we at any rate can't get at the state options. But that isn't the important part. My major concern was that she continued to enjoy learning at her pace, which was only available at private.

I'm not paying the fees now, but any possible salary increase will be used, rather than saved for post 18. Still, if she was at the local sink school the chances of her choosing to continue education at 18 would be slim so it balances out. And I'd be spending a lot more on extra curricular let alone accessing appropriate educational work for her.

I don't know the schools in question, but I know that with the pricing out of the mc one in the next county to me has been gradually dropping it's entrance criteria to boost numbers and is quickly loosing it's academic reputation. But it's still pricey enough that it still can't fill spaces.

"Have you sadly fallen into the trap of thinking that paying always means amazing results?"

If you have a NT child then of course paying should mean they get at least very good results!

If you have a NT child then of course paying should mean they get at least very good results!
This is what people are saying. Paying monry doesn't guarantee the results you want.

It's like students paying £9000 tuition fees thinking that their fees mean thry are entitled to have lecturers email them back.with help on ever assignmemt because they've paid money. Thry have paid to attend university; they have not bought a degree. What degree they gry depends on their work and attitude.

Same for private schools. When someone chooses to pay private, they are payinh for a certain type of education. They are not buying thr set of GCSE or A levels they want, nor ensuring them a place at a top uni. You can throw as much monry as you like at a child but if the child doesn't want to learn/ isn't very academic then ni amount of money will get them As.

Uni fees are nothing like paying for school fees.

If anyone pays upwards of 15k a year for green fields and drama then they must have money to burn. Of course private school parents expect that at the very least the school will go above and beyond to nurse their child through gcses.

If anyone pays upwards of 15k a year for green fields and drama then they must have money to burn.

Or they have looked at the local state options:
The 3 nearest secondary schools to Wrekin appear to be 1 'inadequate' school , 1 'requires improvement' and 1 good school with excellent Progress 8 - but with nearly 40% fsm and almost twice as many 'low attainers' as 'high attainers'.

Thomas Telford School is also nearby but they have over 1,000 pupils sitting the ability banding test for 180 places.
As an aside - how on earth do Thomas Telford get away with requesting every prospective pupil's Year 5 school report and attendance record?

There are better state schools around Shrewsbury but they are all co-ed. Surely, one of the main attractions of a GDST school is the girls-only environment - that is what many parents are willing to pay for, certainly up to age 16.

The girls' grammar school in Newport had 348 applicants (who presumably all passed the 11+ exam as results come out before the CAF deadline) for 84 places.

Did your dd sit the grammar school test op?

scabs I can assure that for many schools the drop from 4 to 3 A level in L6 is a response to budget constraints. It vastly reduces the costs of sixth form.

Schools spin it as A Good Thing and a response to the new curriculum but it's just bollocks. Almost no private schools have taken that step. They still offer 4 in L6 as do most grammar schools.

And we've seen the result. It is ( as everyone involved in widening access predicted) a reduction in the number of state schooled pupils going to the most selective universities.

Now this year, was a bit of a blip as it's a low birth year and even top end courses need bums on seats. So the reduction in state school numbers will only get worse.

But hey ho. Everything is brilliant in state education. No need to worry. What budget cuts? What teacher shortage? The children of the middle classes can overcome all that because they're so very special.

State grammar schools like Newport Girls High, Adams and Thomas Telford score consistently above 50% A/A and at least four Shrewsbury Sixth form students have achieved Oxbridge places.*

Your research isn't very good op.

A quick google reveals that Thomas Telford say they consistently achieve over 40% A*/A at A level but gov. stats reveal only 28% AAB or higher in at least 2 facilitating subjects for last year.
Adams Grammar had 42 pupils achieve A*/A in 3 or more A levels this year out of 155 pupils (so less than 30%) and Newport Girls' Grammar had 13 pupils (out of 65?) so about 20%, although last year their AAB % beat Thomas Telford by 5%.

Shrewsbury Sixth Form College might have achieved at least four Oxbridge places but they over 800 pupils per year group taking A levels!

There seems to be a mini vendetta against Shrewsbury High;
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/education/2727454-Shrewsbury-High-falls-again

Is this you as well op?

Angel, I believe it has already been said but the measure you need to use (along with attainment measures) is the 'progress' one.
And over time rather than just the latest one, this will show if the school is 'getting worse'.

Attached is the progress (and av points score) of some of the schools you mention (Academic score, not A-level). Some of the school you say are good, aren't.
SHS has a low (ish) progress score. Unfortunately, when you try to look at historic data (on the Gov site) it says page not found which doesn't help.
If SHS has a low score for the previous years as well then I'd be worried generally. I'd caveat this though in that they may put all their progression into Y7/9 to GCSE.
A school in my area has average A-level progression but outstanding GCSE progression, and it's a top school.

I'm also very puzzled by Angels posts as they are consistently bashing Shrewsbury High.Which incidentally obtained completely contrasting results in their A & Gcse results this year.I would also like to hear why Wrekin isn't suiting you either?
You do appear to have a very personal grudge against this school beyond the realms of normality.Please explain why?And yes if you are unhappy move.I think a bright child would have got better A level results in Hereford sixth form college than Shrewsbury High this year.