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Education

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Are we wasting our money?

234 replies

angelnumber9 · 05/10/2017 16:29

It appears that every year the results gap between state and independent schools narrows and this seems even more defined with 2017 figures. Combined with the incentives that top universities give to state school students I am struggling to find good reasons to carry on paying our hard earned dosh for DC's education.
To give this some perspective I have checked out local independent school results and compared them with some of the state school alternatives and it makes interesting reading. I have said before that we are very lucky to have such a good collection of schools in Shropshire. It has to be said that we can only just afford the less expensive ones such as Wrekin or Shrewsbury High School and I appreciate that like all things you get what you pay for but if you care to cost it out purely on a results v price basis there seems very little point in spending your money.....or am I missing something really important?
Having watched selective schools like the gdst's Shrewsbury High school continue to plummet down the A level league tables for the last 5 years (from 63rd with 61% A/A in 2014 to 255th and 26% this year) I know that many parents are again asking what their money is being spent on. Especially when non selective schools such as Moreton Hall and Adcote are roaring ahead (Moreton is an all round school monumentally up 118 places to 91st place with 53%, more that twice that of its High School rival. State grammar schools like Newport Girls High, Adams and Thomas Telford score consistently above 50% A/A and at least four Shrewsbury Sixth form students have achieved Oxbridge places. The Marches sixth form has 22% and William Brooke's 24%. Shrewsbury School and Concord (like the High School selective but far more expensive) have broken their own records. Concord unbelievably managing 84% A/A with 45% at A. Shrewsbury School continue to publish detailed exam results and leavers destinations on their very informative website.
Perhaps I'm too caught up in figures but when Shrewsbury High School recently held an Oxbridge conference in an attempt to win an award (sadly I'm told none of their girls have secured offers there since 2015) I can understand why parents are livid. But they now have a new dance school so perhaps girls will be able to waltz their way into Oxbridge??? (sorry, couldn't resist!).
So I am very frustrated about it all and seriously considering cutting my losses. I hate to see our school fees being spent on ridiculous projects when the focus should be on raising standards. With what I would save in fees I could probably buy a small house which may be a far better investment for my children in the long term.........anyone?

OP posts:
Nordicwannabe · 07/10/2017 22:31

bluejelly - I give my daughter a range of nutritious, healthy food for the following reasons:

  • it helps keep her healthy
  • it gives her the energy to learn and play
  • it helps her to grow as tall as her genetic potential allows
  • it tastes good and she enjoys eating it
  • we eat together as a family, and this is what we eat

Now I would love it if every child in the world had plenty of good food, but they don't. That makes me sad, but it doesn't make me question whether I should use the money I earn to feed my daughter.

Do you feel uncomfortable at your children being well fed when so many other children are not? Make no mistake, that is a far more significant advantage than private education over state.

And if you don't feel uncomfortable that the only reason your children have sufficient good food is because you can pay for it (mainly due to being born in a rich country), then why should any other parent feel uncomfortable that the only reason their children get the education they have chosen is because they can pay for that?

ChocolateWombat · 08/10/2017 08:25

We feel uncomfortable because we have empathy for others. Because education is a basic human right and the fact some can buy advantage in this area is unfair.
Feeling uncomfortable doesn't mean we won't pay for education for our children or make it wrong that we do. However to have no sense at all of the injustice in this area along with many others makes us unaware and un empathetic and lacking in humanity - all deeply unattractive.

Do we need to apologise for paying and having something most don't. No, but I think we need some humility and to acknowledge how fortunate we are to have choices and that the system is not fair because it is easy to appear as entitled and arrogant twats

Oliversmumsarmy · 08/10/2017 08:40

Instead of looking at the schools results and whether or not the school can deliver an Oxbridge placement. Why not look at your dc and decide on which school is the best fit for them.

By and large school results should be a secondary concern.

No point in looking at a school with top results if it concentrates on science and your child wants to pursue the Arts

Going to see a school and getting a feel for the place is worth more than a few lines about how many pupils they got into Oxford or Cambridge

Oliversmumsarmy · 08/10/2017 08:48

Just to clarify dance and drama on a certain level will get you in to University. grade 8 Lamda is the equivalent of an A level and equally certain levels of dance gives you the ability to teach the subject.

MaisyPops · 08/10/2017 08:54

What I'm getting from this is:
You think you are paying for results and places at oxbridge. You are annoyed that the SCHOOL didn't get oxbridge places after tbry ran a conference on it. You're falsely under the impression tbat state students get an easier route to oxbridge and are irritated that there are schemes and summer schools to help widen participation when studenta are disadvantaged.

So to counter that:

  1. State schools do not get an easier ride
  2. State schools don't generally have the schools tutoring and polishing them for oxford or Cambridge, nor do they have conferences for oxbridge applicants
  3. STUDENTS get their results, not schools. Thr best teaching in the world won't get someone into oxbridge if the studnet doesn't do it.
  4. Disadvantage is complex and a series of micro disadvantages that add uo over time. A child who wad brought up in poverty starts school with a literacy gap, more likely to have a lower performing school, less likely to do a levels, less likely to have enrichement opportunities. Would you like to remove all the lovely stuff from your child's life so they could get onto a summer school?
  5. Some contextual offers are given. Question is whether you would want to have your child brought up in poverty and attend lower performing schools where theu battle to reduce the effects of poverty over the lovely leafy independent school you've chosen.

Maybe take a step back, realise oxbridge isn't everything, stop trying to find an easier route, realise that education is more than results and THEN make the right choice for your child.

Rachie1986 · 08/10/2017 08:55

Having taught state for 8 years and now my 2nd in private (both secondary) I would say a private education gives so much more than results - pastoral care, small classes, a lot more individual care, better relationships, other experiences. If I could afford private (I can't) I'm fairly sure I'd send my daughter to a private school.

That said, I and a large proportion of the population did just find at state! And I'm sure DD will too.

NataliaOsipova · 08/10/2017 09:06

I think successive elections have proved that the UK does not have a homogenous vision of what good state education should look like. Nor do they wish to have taxes raised to pay for it.

This is it. This is it in a (brilliantly expressed, if I may say so) nutshell.

whiteroseredrose · 08/10/2017 09:15

Just to throw in my penny's worth...

As the OP has discovered paying for an independent doesn't necessarily get a better education than at a state school because it depends on the schools in question.

So for example I was a TA in a local school. The percentage of DC getting into the local Grammars from my DC's school and the school I worked in was slightly lower than at the preps. But the state had a much wider intake so could be considered to be doing better.

We kept reading in the Messenger about all the extra curricular stuff that the preps were doing. Lots were exactly the same at my school - we just hadn't sent pictures to the paper!

Finally a good friend taught French in a well thought of independent school pre PGCE. After her training she said she winced at how poor her lessons had been comparatively. She wouldn't have got away with that at a state school.

Locally we have great state schools. Where we used to live was the opposite so when we had DC we had to consider private. That's one of the reasons we chose to move. Had we had to stay put then we too would have found the fees. Mediocre Indy being better than awful state school.

OP if your DD has friends at the local state and would slot in. And if the Indy isn't meeting expectations then move her. Seems like a no brainer to me.

Nordicwannabe · 08/10/2017 09:56

ChocolateWombat - I certainly agree that we should all recognise and be grateful for how incredibly lucky and privileged we are.

What seems entitled and arrogant to me is posters like bluejelly making pointed comments about people choosing private education without seeming to have any idea of her own privilege.

Oliversmumsarmy · 08/10/2017 10:28

DD and ds both went to private school. But they didn't go to the same private school because what suited dd didn't suit ds.

After school had finished dd went to one college whilst the majority of her friends scattered between 3 other colleges. They all studied the same subjects but for dd the other 3 equally excellent colleges which we visited didn't have the right feel to them for dd.

Whilst you can narrow schools down on OFSTED reports and results ultimately it is about knowing your Childs strengths, weaknesses and ultimately their goals in life. Not to be confused with your goals for them.

Ds went to a school which had an outstanding reputation but for ds he sank like a stone. We moved him to one that was struggling but for him it turned out to be the best school ever.

angelnumber9 · 08/10/2017 13:59

Dear MaisiePops and others, what I am really disappointed about is that these schools, some of them claiming to be selective, market themselves with the promise of achieving top university places for our children, often manipulating historic data to try to illustrate how good they are. There seems to be a dishonesty driven by a desire to recruit new students and to shine in relation to their peers and there seems to be little regulation of outrageous claims made by many schools, I have never seen spin like it! This element has been very well highlighted by the despicable acts of some highly regarded independent schools at exam time earlier this year. It seems that the competition to recruit, and be seen as the best tempts schools into promising the earth when they know damn well that they will never be able to fulfil those promises and that is in relation to both academic AND the extras that are offered. That is what has incensed me the most, and the fact that I was stupid enough to fall for it. I am so glad we have acted early enough to protect the future of DD and with our support I know she will do well, as well as she can, in her education.
And please stop talking about exam results as if they are not so important. They are surely the launch pad into higher education and adult life that can make or break future careers, and if not, why are we bothering with exams at all.

OP posts:
happygardening · 08/10/2017 14:23

"often manipulating historic data to try to illustrate how good they are"
OP I've has DS's in both sectors and I've work in both sectors and Ive seen spin in state schools and independent schools. DS1 went an "outstanding high achieving" comp, the head master must have has a degree in spin. I've also seen exactly the same thing in the independent sector, particularly when it come to "senior school destinations". IMO this reflects the results/league table obsessed world we live in.
"market themselves with the promise of achieving top university places for our children'
At DS2's school approx 35% go onto Oxbridge and anther 10% to the Ivy League and their equivalents abroad. DS hasn't done either of these neither were of ay interest to him, in fact he finished yr 13 not wanting to go to any university I'm prepared to accept if he's been to the super selective grammar school where he also got a place then the outcome might have been different, mainly because I think he would have been under more pressure to apply to university when he was there. I dont blame the school or say they promised me X but I got Y, or regret stumping up a very large sum of money. I look at the whole picture, my DS had received a totally unique broad education that no state school can offer, where exam result etc although important weren't the be all and end all. This I believed was important for my very science/math orientated DS. Just to add he's now very happy at a top RG university of his choice.
If you don't feel that there is a bigger picture or are not interested in the bigger picture then I think your best course of action would be to move your DD to a state school at the earliest possible moment that wont impaction to much on her education.

angelnumber9 · 08/10/2017 16:12

Dear happygardening and others, you appear to be saying that you're more than happy to carry on paying the fees regardless of academic results, the 'bigger picture' as you call it. We, ridiculous as it may sound, expect to see a good education include some reasonable qualifications, especially so where assurances have been made.
It seems that many on this thread value the 'experience' of DC going to an independent school over them leaving with reasonable qualifications, in a similar way that many consider university as an 'experience'.
DD is happy, bright and hard working but perhaps from a very different world where at home she is encouraged to succeed in life to the point where she is able to survive on her own two feet without the probability of mummy and daddy constantly bailing her out. So the 'extra value' that many think they get from an independent education really is lost on the likes of us. I've always wanted the best for my DD but I suppose in some ways this thread has helped me to 'know my place' and following half term break DD will be in her local state with her local friends. I have met a lot of like minded mums over the last couple of years who are from modest backgrounds but wanting the best possible outcomes for their DC. Many are becoming very disillusioned and on reading this thread may also reconsider their choice of school..
I wish all contributors great happiness for their children. They all start off the same as kids and we help turn them into the adults they become, for better or for worse. Good luck to one and all.

OP posts:
Loopytiles · 08/10/2017 16:18

You are talking about specific schools in your area, and have specific family circumstances and will make your own informed decision.

Disruption of DCs’ education social or home life of moving schools is another factor IMO. My local state secondary gets under 40% 5 A to Cs. Similar to my old comprehensive where the education wasn’t great IME - plenty of bright DC not achieving well there.

To get into the more popular schools we would have to move house (and downsize, since there’s a price premium on housing near popular schools) in time for admissions.

Scabbersley · 08/10/2017 16:27

The 'bigger picture' might include using the money spent on private school for uni fees or a house deposit.

fairyofallthings · 08/10/2017 16:32

Bertrand some universities give contextual offers to students from state schools with a catchment area which includes areas of deprivation or are in the bottom 40% of state schools nationwide. It varies from year to year though I believe. Maybe this is what is being referred to?

GetAHaircutCarl · 08/10/2017 16:34

It might scabbs but mostly it doesn't.

85% of students take out loans. Of those that don't I'm willing to place a bet that a lot were privately educated too.

The truth is that very few parents actually put 16k or whatever aside. Life often doesn't work like that.

On the subject of exam results. I don't think anyone has said they don't matter. Just that they are rarely the driving factor in going private.

Both mine left school this summer. One just started on a ludicrously academic course, one on a course where there was no requirement of an A level at all ( though ludicrously selective on another level). I don't feel I've wasted my money on either of them.

fairyofallthings · 08/10/2017 16:38

MaisyPops 5. Some contextual offers are given. Question is whether you would want to have your child brought up in poverty and attend lower performing schools where theu battle to reduce the effects of poverty over the lovely leafy independent school you've chosen.

This doesn't necessarily apply. We have one local high school, it covers leafy suburbs and a large council estate/area of high deprivation. Houses vary from 100k to over 1 million all within the one catchment area. Students are eligible for contextual offers. The school has high achievement rates, higher than the neighbouring school which only has leafy suburbs from an area of high wealth and aspirations. This year four students went to Oxbridge, several went to top RG universities. Students going there were not put into a school which is low performing - the students going to Oxbridge included ones from the leafy suburbs and the large council estate, as did the RG students. OFSTED inspected the school this year and rated it as outstanding again.

AnneEyhtMeyer · 08/10/2017 17:09

If you take your child out at half term you will still be liable for a term's fees. You would be best placed to give notice at Christmas and move at Easter.

GnomeDePlume · 08/10/2017 17:21

fairy there doesn't seem to be fixed criteria for making contextual offers. They seem to differ between universities. Some criteria are specific to the school and some to other things like take up of higher education within the postcode.

MaisyPops · 08/10/2017 17:56

By all means be annoyed at the spin, but to be honest every school I have worked in and had involvement with spins things for material. It's basic advertising.

In my opinion, anyone who chooses a school mainly because they claim to get students into top universities is daft.

Equally, exam results are important but they aren't everything. As a teacher there are many benefits of going private (& some down sides like the cost of extras and crew of snobby pushy parents - i know not everyone is like that) but exam results wouldn't be my driver for sending private. A bright child in a decent school will do well regardless.

Some schools know there is a market for I want my child in a nice independent school with other high achievers so they are guaranteed their top results and will get coached into a place at a top uni where they can continue to be surrounded by other nice well to do bright people so they capitalise on it. That's why they do oxbridge application workshops etc. They are selling aspiration and charging £££ for it.

happygardening · 08/10/2017 18:01

"I don't think anyone has said they don't matter. Just that they are rarely the driving factor in going private."
This sums it up for me.
Secondly no school, however academic, however glowing their exam results, % going to the Oxbridge, the Ivy League etc and however bright your DC will guarantee success.
"expect to see a good education include some reasonable qualifications,"
I would like my DS to be happy well adjusted human beings, caring empathetic of others, ideally in jobs they enjoy or if not happy in the job they do at the very least hope that those enable them to enjoy life a bit let them do some things they want to do. DS2 at one stage instead of going to university thought he wanted to learn a "trade", he believed he would be happy doing it, as long as he'd thought about it carefully I had no problem with it.
I know someone whose teenage DC was tragically killed in a freak accident she once told me that she now realises that as parents we spend so much of our children lives worrying and fretting about schools, exams, results which university they go to, etc all these things are utterly meaningless, count your lucky stars that we have our children, forget all that other stuff its totally irrelevant, just enjoy them.

ChocolateWombat · 08/10/2017 18:07

Contextual offers arise from a number of 'flags' on an applicant's UCAS form. Flags are given for first generation to go to uni, postcodes associated with deprivation, school attended having very low uni take up rates, LAC.
Most state schools won't generate flags - it will just be those low performing ones and those which historically send very few to uni.

Re the comment that grades are rarely the driver behind going private - I would disagree. They may not be the only driver, but they are a big one for most people.
They might not be the only driver - great grades are possible in most grammars and good Comps, but people sometimes choose to pay still because they feel the fee paying school will offer extras beyond these grades.
Some choose the less academic schools which offer other stuff such as SEN provision or wider stuff, becaue they know their kids aren't ever going to be top academics - they won't get into the really academic fee paying schools. However, these parents usually still want more than decent grades for their offspring. Results could not be said to be of no consequence.

It may well be that Oxbridge isn't a driving factor behind people's choices - and that seems very reasonable because most kids ar e never going to be Oxbridge candidates. However, I would think many people paying fees hope their kids will go to uni, and achieve a decent clutch if GCSEs and A levels assuming there is nothing particularly preventing this. It is up to parents to research schools and be fully au fait with how that school is achieving on entry and if it is line with what they hope for their kids. It's not unreasonable to be disappointed if standards in a school plummet, or if your own child performs hugely below the norm and the risk of this happening has never been mentioned along the way.

As with all big purchased, buyer beware is a good mantra. It is up to the purchaser to check out the product and the value for money.

And I think it is true that few who have paid later openly say they think they received poor value for money - we do have to validate our own N big financial decisions. So as someone else mentioned, when it has turned out to be disappointing, paying fees is justified by saying the state options were far worse than they really were, or by emphasising the non-academic and less tangible aspects that it is hard to pin down and quantify. It's easier to say here on an anonymous forum that we secretly think we could have had similar outcomes from a free option, but harder in real life, when those who have had the free option take huge pleasure from knowing their little Jonny did just as well as your little Jonny, plus plays for the county or is in a top orchestra, but they saved £150k at the same time.

In the end we can all only do what we think is best at the time we have to make those choices, with the information available to us. We need to gather the info as fully as we can and then we have to accept our choices. Sometimes it is possible to change our
R minds part way through, but this isn't always possible. So I think we need to be as sure as we can before deciding and then commit to the choice we make. Go with it and there isn't a lot of point analysing the 'what ifs' too much, because we can never know what other options might have turned out as. Only pay if you can afford it and are willing to see the money go and don't feel you need a very specific 'return' on your investment in terms of grades or uni outcomes. It's never good for kids to feel they owe their parents certain GCSEs or uni places because their parents crimped and saved. The outcome will be what it will be and if you've chosen to pay, you have to accept that the money is gone, for the experience as much as the outcome.

gillybeanz · 08/10/2017 18:12

I don't think that results are the be all tbh.
There are plenty of children in private schools who will barely gain any GCSE's but have the best education available to them.
you can't always find this in state provision.
If you can afford it, or in our case the gov pay the fees then why not take the opportunity.
There is much more to a good school than achieving 9's in GCSE's.

GetAHaircutCarl · 08/10/2017 18:19

chocolate you may be right about results being a driver. I'm only going on my own feelings and those of parents I know ( can't say they run into thousands Smile ).

That said when I told people of DD's post school plans I received no negativity. And her school were also super supportive.

MN has also been a source of huge support. No one has said that not going to to study an academic course is a mistake.

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