I've read here on mnet recently that ..."The cost of private education is state education."

[Bubble99]

The problem is, IMO, no parent wants to be the one who puts their child into a failing school to raise the standards for future children.

I live in an area where the state primary schools are some of the best in the country but the secondary schools have the highest truancy rates in the UK and each OFSTED report for these schools mentions poor pupil behaviour and results.

The reason seems to be that involved and supportive parents use the primary schools but opt out of the secondary schools to go private by hook or by crook.

The result is that, as the local secondary schools are undersubscribed, they are then 'opened up' to children in neighbouring boroughs where parental involvement/interest seems to be less.

It is cyclical. Poor attendance/behaviour and results mean that local parents will not choose to send their children to their local school.

Well, DS1 is at independent school currently - he didn't even get into the state primaries we applied to. I really wish we had looked into it more when we moved 3.5 years ago - I looked into the decent primaries nearby but didn't realise you have to live almost on the doorstep to get it. We're lucky in that we can just about afford private education - even then, it's hugely competitive and DS1 might not get into an independent secondary locally (especially as he's an August birthday). It really is a mess. Back to the OP (I think) I wonder what would be required to get a new state secondary school to be opened that would serve the evident needs of the tax-payers.

Oh scummy, you are fantastic. Marry me? I will divorce Mr Glenister just the minute you say yes.

We may be arguing over nothing Anna as most of us would want to look after ourselves enough to be able to care for others.

But certainly around the world and throughout history women (and men too) have starved themselves to feed their children and laid down their lives to save others. It's a fairly common thing to do and is probably played out in most homes on a daily basis.

How exciting! Thank you very much for asking, dino and for your wonderful offer of support with the ceremony, batters. However, I must confess that I am actually finding Mr Scummy rather lovely at the moment and must therefore reluctantly decline. I am feeling full of frustration re: new job which has now taken 10 full weeks (4 of them unemployed and thus skint) and counting to materialise and he is being a rather supportive star type person. So I would feel a bit mean kicking him to the kerb just now.

No Batters because you have gone over to the other side

Well, I'll just be your bit on the side then Scummy, for those moments when we need a bit of mutual support regarding the Vale of Tears to which we are consigning our Delicate Flowers .

Arf at you three! Dino, jilted at the altar! Beers all round at Yumyums on Monday, to drown your sorrows.

40% of parents in RuT send their children to Private secondaries. I think that's the highest rate in the country.

The catchment area for my local secondary now extends as far as Shepherd's Bush (that's a long way from Richmond.)

Another school which is now being used by local primaries has a shrinking catchment area.

You could get to wear a veil if you got married Batters

Yes

Wag wag cam, you stirrer you! Thank you, dino. I am honoured to accept the position of accasional bit on the side!

occasional

Re: the responsibility to ourselves/responsibility to the wider community.... its a complex issue and therefore there's no easy way of balancing it up. For example, the point I made earlier about sending my children to independent school now that dh teaches in one and we get a massive fee reduction.... given that dh worked for 20 years in the state sector, for much of it in some very deprived areas, and given that he is an excellent teacher (ok I'm biased! But the feedback he gets from kids and parents supports that).....I would argue that he has made more of a contribution to the greater good than someone who, for example, works selling double glazing and makes a good income but not enough to send his kids to private school and therefore sends them to the local state secondary?? (Nothing against double glazing salesmen, it's just an example!!)Sorry - this is a bit rambling, but the point is, why pick on education as such a defining factor in the personal/collective responsibility debate? I still don't get why some of our friends resent the choice we have made. We all make choices all of the time to a greater or lesser degree.

I see it almost the same way, but at a step removed. I'm making decisions for other people, DCs get no say in the matter. I'm not balancing my interests against others, I am in a position of trust for my kids.
There is also the matter of proportionality.
My kids life would be seriously affected by going to a crap state school, at very little if any benefit to the other kids.

I pay twice for education, both taxes and school fees. Does the state use that saving to make education better ? Or does it instead use it to build a centre for national sporting excellence ?

In order to keep Daily Mail readers happy the state chooses not to build enough schools or To keep Guardian readers happy, it under funds science education and stuffs the currculum with daft shit like Urdu and RE. To

Absolutely. I used to feel slight guilt about our situation, but I've rationalised it and realised there's nothing to feel guilty about. Recently someone I know (not a close friend but an acquaintance) made a bit of a barbed comment about my dcs being at independent school. I simply replied 'Do you or your partner work in the public sector?' (They don't - he's in IT, she works in a fitness centre). 'Do you choose not to take your husbands perk of a company car?' (No - they accept it)and finally 'Are you prepared to move out of your 4 bed detached home simply because some people can only afford a 2 bed house?'(No - they were still living there last time I looked!)
As I said, our whole lives are about making choices and decisions, and as long as we're n ot actively damaging anyone else, I can't see the problem with looking after ourselves.

ebenezer - exactly. Life is full of choices and some people are lucky enough to have more choices than others. And let us not forget that we live in a society where, when we have a lot of money, we pay a LOT of tax towards the common good.

DC you say - My kids life would be seriously affected by going to a crap state school, at very little if any benefit to the other kids.

How badly do you think your kids would be affected by going to say an average state school? What do you imagine your kids would become having gone to an average or crap state school. Paint a picture for me.

Was your school a crap state school?

I can tell you my experience of going to a crap state school - total misery. As one of the handful of bright children at the school (6 went to university out of a year group of 250+ )my life was a nightmare. At best I was excluded by my peers and at worst regularly bullied. There was no kudos awarded to being academic and well-behaved. The only recognition ever given was to the sporty ones (who coincidentally tended to be the bullies). I got to university in spite of my school not because of it and felt totally inadequate as I was surrounded by people from grammar and public school who had been groomed to perform well by their schools from way back.Yes, you could argue that bright kids still get good results at crap schools but they do so at a huge price - their happiness.

I went to a state school that wasn't crap but was probably below average. It was ok. I made some friends,passed my exams and went to university.But that was all it was - ok. I believe that education is about a lot more than that. I want my children to be in a culture that values academic success. I want them to experience excellence in sport, music, drama etc. I want them to be polite and confident. I teach in a state school which isn't crap, but isn't great either. DH teaches in an independent school. We therefore do have first hand experience of both systems, and have chosen independent for the above mentioned reasons.

Yes Drosophila, I went to one of the many crap state schools. My experience was not unlike idlemums. But with the extra "benefit" that my studies of Chemistry were largely copying from text books because the technical drawing teacher wasn't allowed to do any science. There was no A level biology at all. I couldn't go on a trip to France, because the staff informed me that they couldn't guarantee my safety.

I was bullied a bit, and my way of dealing with the situation left damage on both sides.

The staff were largely indifferent to bullying, and had tragically low expectations of the kids in general.

We had a computer, which we stole, I don't mean that in any other sense other than a violation of the criminal law.

I went to university. 3 of my year didn't make it to the end of school alive. one only survived in one piece because I took out the thug who'd stabbed him in 6th form common room.
Said thug wasn't expelled because it "wasn't policy". I was left quite literally dripping in other people's blood after that incident. The smell was was quite impressive.

Both my DSs are very smart (at 5 DS1 is programming), and require people of standing up to them, and with the time to do it.

My wife who went to a nice middle class state school flatly refused to believe my tales of school. Especially the one where I'd found it rational to dive through the glass of a second floor window.
She shared the delusion that all fans of state education, that substandard state schools were ones where the paint was a bit manky. I've met no one who went to a crap state school who shares the parlous socialist view that taking good kids out of a crap system is somehow a crime against society.
Ironically, the Chaplain at our reassuringly expensive private school was my old RE teacher. We both had scars from that places, and as it happens I still have one on my hand from him... DW was forced to accept that perhaps her nicely spoken educated husband's past was possibly true...

Wow, that's dreadful. I certainly know my ex husbdn who taught in both systems said his state school was like being a policeman, more than anything and he much preferred teaching in private schools. I'm not socialist so I have no problems with paying twice and opting out. I went to a very small private school where very few girls went to university. I got the best A levels in the school which wasn't at all hard and had I been elsewhere I might I suppose have gone to Oxbridge but it was certainly not a bad education, just one surrounded by very thick girls on the whole. That's partly why I wanted my children in bigger more academic private schools with better facilities. For example I've quite musical, pased grade 8 singing alone, taught myself the violin, had piano lessons. We didn't even have a ohoir at that private school. However missing a choir is hardly comparable with a risk of being stabbed.