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Education

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I've read here on mnet recently that ..."The cost of private education is state education."

133 replies

Bubble99 · 20/03/2007 20:35

The problem is, IMO, no parent wants to be the one who puts their child into a failing school to raise the standards for future children.

I live in an area where the state primary schools are some of the best in the country but the secondary schools have the highest truancy rates in the UK and each OFSTED report for these schools mentions poor pupil behaviour and results.

The reason seems to be that involved and supportive parents use the primary schools but opt out of the secondary schools to go private by hook or by crook.

The result is that, as the local secondary schools are undersubscribed, they are then 'opened up' to children in neighbouring boroughs where parental involvement/interest seems to be less.

It is cyclical. Poor attendance/behaviour and results mean that local parents will not choose to send their children to their local school.

OP posts:
foxinsocks · 22/03/2007 12:27

but some people don't have the option of earning that extra money (either because their salary is not that large or because working more hours doesn't generate significantly more cash) and, where it does work (as in this primary school), the benefit is to everyone not only to the specific few (iyswim).

But I agree with you about the moving house/private school choice scenario.

MrsPhilipGlenister · 22/03/2007 12:33

I am very committed to state education but get fed up being told on mumsnet that people like me are sacrificing our children on the altar of my principles/a failure for not being able to afford private school fees/naive and deluded/have chips on our shoulders.

So I am parping now.

drosophila · 22/03/2007 12:43

Do you really think private schooling makes for happier people????

Do you really think academically successful children make for happier adults????

What will you do when your kid wants to be the next Pete Doherty?

What is it you actually want for your kids?

foxinsocks · 22/03/2007 12:49

are you talking to me?

oh dino, don't parp.

Azure · 22/03/2007 12:52

DS1 is in Yr 1 so we're not there yet but I'm very cross about the state secondary schools on offer in my borough (LBH&F). The top three schools are girls schools or Catholic (or both), there is a further girl's school and the remaining couple of boys/mixed schools have appalling results. As I have two non-Catholic boys what exactly are my options? Is it not discrimination that my children are denied access to a decent state secondary education in the borough because they are the wrong religion or the wrong sex?

Judy1234 · 22/03/2007 12:53

Wellington has just started happiness classes for pupils so may be you get better training in how to lead a happy life at some private schools. Exercise also helps and some private schools offer more than state, every day in my children's case so that raises beta endorphins and makes for happier children. Expensive good school lunches may also help ensure low GI foods, no sweets etc - again more likely to get that in private schools.

But more seriously once you have enough money to live on no money doesn't make you happier but if you have a private exucation you're less likely to be grubbing around for that last penny and worrying about money for the next 70 years so in that case yes it also makes you happier.

"Do you really think academically successful children make for happier adults????" - no, better the happy pig than the unhappy philospher as the old saying goes. I think it's a neutral issue.

But nor do I think life should be for the pursuit of happiness. That is a morally corrupt aim. A better aim would be helping others even if your own happiness suffers.

"What will you do when your kid wants to be the next Pete Doherty?"....I would hate them to be addicted to anything. Addiction however cuts across class and income levels so private or state schooling won't make too much difference on that. I certainly woudlnt' mind however if they pursued music as a career. We're a very musical family.

"What is it you actually want for your kids?" That they lead good lives. That they fulfil their potential. That they achieve what they want to achieve. My 5 are all very different so what is right for one won't be right for others. But they're all fairly clever and they have definitely benefited from being educated with classes who are all about the same so the whole class standard is high rather than mixed.

arcticwind · 22/03/2007 12:53

I think at the end of the day a parent will want to do the best by their child(ren). If the state school can provide that, wonderful. If it cannot, for whatevr reason, they are forced to look elsewhere. An influx of local parents may hel a school generally but what effect will it have on SN and G & T provision?

bundle · 22/03/2007 12:54

happiness classes???

Judy1234 · 22/03/2007 12:55

"This autumn term, students at Wellington will be the first in the world to start regular lessons in well-being (known colloquially as 'happiness').

From later this week, girls and boys in years 10 and 11 (aged 14+ and 15+) will have a 40-minute timetabled lesson on 'the skills of well-being' every fortnight for two years. The lessons will give them an understanding of what factors help a life to thrive and flourish, as well as teaching them some practical skills for everyday use.

The unique curriculum has been devised for Wellington by Dr Nick Baylis of the University of Cambridge (www.CambridgeWellbeing.org), one of the world's leading specialists in the science of well-being. The approach is founded on the principle of studying lives that go particularly well, and then using that knowledge to develop and apply strategies and skills that promote all-round progress in a person's psychological, physical and social life. Importantly, the curriculum takes a rounded approach to the subject of life development, combining a core of positive psychology with teaching on a range of other key factors such as sleep, nutrition and exercise. Ten of the school's existing teachers are being trained to deliver the curriculum, led by Wellington's Ian Morris, who has devised the classroom applications in close collaboration with Dr Baylis.

Special programmes in other schools have tended to target 'youngsters at risk', or children rather than teenagers, or specific maladies such as depression rather than life in general, so the great majority of interventions have been remedial, trying to get youngsters from below average up to average. Our curriculum is aimed at helping everyone to make progress, no matter what the individual's starting point.

The lesson themes are structured around a student's relationship with life, including:

· The relationship between mind and body

· The relationship between their conscious and subconscious

· The relationships with people around them

· The relationship with their past, present, future and fantasy lives

· The relationship with the natural world

Techniques and activities in the lessons will include: learning how to positively channel emotional energy; working in harmony with the sub-conscious mind; overcoming fears and unhelpful inhibitions; and using 'imaginative rehearsal' to improve real-life performance.

Wellington parents will be invited to attend a seminar and workshop with Dr Baylis and the Wellington teaching team later this term to involve them fully in this initiative, and introduce them to what 'the skills of well-being' are all about. In February 2007, an educational conference will be held on the subject, and those interested in attending can email [email protected] for further information.

The subject is not one in which exams are taken, but Dr Baylis and Dr Anthony Seldon, the Master of Wellington, plan to put in place a range of benchmarking and tracking methods over time to assess the range and level of benefits for the pupils. Dr Baylis is devising a number of measures to provide objective evidence as to whether a youngster can do far more after the well-being training than he or she could at the outset.

"These lessons will challenge pupils to explore themselves and their talents, learn in a practical way how to better look after their bodies, minds and emotions, enhance their relationships with others, with technology and the environment, and help them to learn how to make themselves, not others (including friends and parents), the masters of their lives. These initiatives may not change the world, but they are our response to the need for a more holistic education; and I believe independent schools have a duty to be innovative," said Dr Seldon.

"We were overwhelmed by the worldwide response to the announcement of our plans for well-being lessons - almost all of it extremely positive - and parents have been hugely supportive. We are very conscious that our work with our students from this term onwards will be watched with intense interest by schools, educationalists and families all around the world, and we hope to report positively on progress during 2007. There will be early feedback on the first six months' lessons at our conference in February next year and we expect the high level of interest in our experiences to continue."

Responding to some commentators who have questioned whether the lessons are simply teaching teenagers how to 'feel good' and 'think selfishly', Dr Baylis explains: "Far from eliciting a self-obsessed attitude to life, our Skills of Well-Being programme will prioritise the sorts of 'healthy partnerships' which allow a youngster to grow well beyond their own concerns and immediate horizons. Rather than focusing on the youngster 'feeling good', our skills focus on the youngster 'doing good', because constructive activities such as partnering-up on a project are likely to bring them some profoundly satisfying emotions.

"By these means, we plan to nurture the sort of quiet self-confidence of character that appreciates we are not defined by the brands and logos we wear, nor the goods we own, nor the things we say; rather it is the quality of partnerships we create with the world around us, that are the measure and the making of us."

There are plans for a 'Skills of Well-Being Handbook' for secondary schools to be available for sale in the spring of 2007, and Dr Baylis will be approaching potential publishers later this month. Meanwhile, 'Learning from Wonderful Lives ', the recent book by Dr Baylis, is the only source of information relevant to the course, obtainable from www.nicksbooks.com. General information about the science of well-being can be found at www.CambridgeWellbeing.org.

Dr Nick Baylis, www.nickbaylis.com, is a well-being scientist and practising psychologist, studying lives that thrive and flourish, even in the face of adversity. He has dedicated the past twelve years to understanding the hows and whys of such 'wonderful lives', looking for the most promising routes to 'healthy, helpful and good-hearted living'.

foxinsocks · 22/03/2007 12:56

yes, I think it is Azure - but then I don't think there should be religious schools (or schools that can select based on religion in the state sector) so that's why I have that opinion.

We would have been faced with the same problem Azure and our local school would have been Phoenix!

Azure · 22/03/2007 13:03

Shudder

Anna8888 · 22/03/2007 13:07

xenia - definitely don't agree that it is a good life aim to help others even if your own happiness suffers. I think our first responsibility is to ourselves; our second to our couple; our third to our children, our fourth to our wider family; and only then to the rest of society. It is actually very hard to do true good if you are not at peace with yourself.

What is morally corrupt is to live life at others' expense, without making a contribution to their lives.

foxinsocks · 22/03/2007 13:11

what are you thinking of doing Azure?

our friends (still there) who aren't going down the private route have girls so it's less of an issue

paranoidaboutschools · 22/03/2007 13:20

Azure,

that's why we left that Borough. RuT state secondaries are not perfect either, at least they don't seem to be that bad.

I agree it's a disgrace that non-catholic parents of boys are often left with crap schools.

ScummyMummy · 22/03/2007 13:20

Because we are shameful financial failures and could not afford more elaborate altar material, my partner and I brushed the naive, deluded chips from our broad and principled shoulders and with them built a sacrifical table for our children. Lo, as we wept bitter tears, we espied in the distance a parping dinosaur Life on Mars fan and announced, relieved, "vv00+ vv00+, it has come to pass that we are not alone."

batters · 22/03/2007 13:32

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ScummyMummy · 22/03/2007 13:38

It was a "cheer up lovely dino" message! Is it a bit, um, obscure?

foxinsocks · 22/03/2007 13:44

lol - a bit but very poetic

We have, and will always be, supporters of our local schools.

I'm sure private school turns out lots of happy, academic children (and probably some who aren't ) but you have to keep in perspective that (according to those stats) only 7% of children are in private education and given that there are vast numbers of British lawyers, doctors, accountants, engineers, teachers, nurses etc. etc. the state system must be capable of churning out something resembling an educated child.

idlemum · 22/03/2007 13:45

In our town there is one mixed school which is a CofE school and it creams off the more able/motivated kids because the parents play the system. There are two more schools - one for girls and one for boys. The mixed school is very high in the league table, the girls school is about 10 points behind and then the boys school lags significantly behind the girls.The girls school is doing better because they are girls - girls are outperforming boys. If the girls school accepted boys, the results would go down. Why would parents of girls want this? Girls need all the help they can get as for the rest of their lives they face an unlevel playing field.

ScummyMummy · 22/03/2007 13:50

Ah! I was very well educated at poetic state schools and obviously I wouldn't expect those with inferior prosaic expensive educations to understand my eloquence.

DINO! Come and appreciate my message immediately before i am crucified.

Judy1234 · 22/03/2007 14:07

Don't agree our first responsibility is to ourselves, Anna. Others matter more. Obviously if you completely neglect yourself you can't help others but a life where you try to ensure you're happy is never going to be a morally worthwhile one.

sm, made me laugh. Obviously people make choices about jobs and incomes where they have a choice which has an impact on the lives their children can then lead.

ElenyaTuesday · 22/03/2007 14:24

I have to agree with Xenia and disagree with Anna re "our first responsibility is to ourselves". Anna, have you read "Happiness - A New Science" by Richard Layard? He is an economist (he actually taught me at University) and he argues that to be happy we actually need to be part of a community and to help others - so by helping others you are increasing your own happiness. Very interesting.

Anna8888 · 22/03/2007 14:24

ah well, we'll never agree on that one either then... I think that the most important skill in life is to learn to take good and proper care of oneself, for it is impossible to take good and proper care of others until you have learnt that skill for yourself.

Are you perhaps confusing the "pursuit of happiness" with "hedonism"?

batters · 22/03/2007 14:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Anna8888 · 22/03/2007 14:26

I don't believe (and never said - look at what I wrote) that we don't need to live with others as part of a community.

But I believe it is very misguided to think that we can do good to others while harming ourselves. Somebody always pays the price for our so-called self-sacrifice.

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