Michael Gove proposes imposing VAT on private school fees

[OCSockOrphanage]

In an Op Ed piece for The Times today (Fri 24 Feb), teaching's Nemesis suggests that school fees should be subject to VAT at 20% so the revenue can be ploughed into improving state provision.

Link

Opinions? I reckon there will be a few?

But maybe your right when it comes to education. If you want your child to receive an education similiar to those in the independent sector and you can afford it you'll have to pay and you'll also be paying for those who can't pay. Or maybe significantly increase taxes then perhaps education health and social care will all be winners.
DH once worked for a very wealthy Scandinavian the sort in the U.K. who don't even have star ed on their radar his children went to the local state school, but their standard of education is reflected in the taxes they pay and the life styles of your average MC Scandinavian
As a society we have to decide if this is what we want, do we really want to address inequalities, are we all prepared to live differently? VAT on school fees won't do this higher taxes might.

There's already not so "voluntary" fees in the NHS.

E.g. Prescription fees, fees for dental work, fees for eye tests.

It's not "free health care for all". Many people are exempt from these fees, yes, but that certainly doesn't extend to all adults under pensionable age.

Instead of VAT wouldn't removing independent schools charity status and tax exemption raise more money if that's what the government want.

Instead of VAT wouldn't removing independent schools charity status and tax exemption raise more money if that's what the government want.

You'd have to be careful with that. The schools have hoops to jump through to maintain charitable status such as supporting state schools, good causes in the community, etc. Take away their charitable status and they may use the shortfall as an excuse to stop their "charitable" work for other organisations. Be careful what you wish for.

Not all private schools are charities. some are businesses, some are not charities but run as not for profit

"E.g. Prescription fees, fees for dental work, fees for eye tests."
I know that we pay for these and lets not forget home care/ nursing home care etc disgraceful.
But at the moment you can see doctor without paying however serious or trivial your problem. If you're sick and require hsospitalisation you will be treated for free regardless of who you are.
I'm unconvinced removing VAT will raise anything significant in terms of enough to solve any serious problems especially if many return to the state sector. The NHS is at least 2 billion in debt.

What about going the other way !
Make private education income tax deductible .
I understand this would not be a popular idea on here. However, maybe this would release some pressure of the state system growing numbers, by increasing the take up in private education.

P.S both my DDs are in state education so this would not benefit my family !

The income tax deductible could work in a similar way to how 'personal allowance' tapers off with increased salary but perhaps be based on family income.

Not all private schools are charities. some are businesses, some are not charities but run as not for profit

This ^ except the second bit should be some are charities and are run as not for profit

www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-news/private-schools-contribute-almost-£12-billion-a-year-british-economy

Plus this ^

Mrs Bernard Black the school my child attends is an example of one which is not a charity but as a SEN school it is run on a not for profit basis

Interesting article!

I didn't mean to contradict you Show, I just wanted to point out that those schools which do have charitable status are run on a not for profit basis.

This business has been rumbling on for so long, if it was possible and effective it would have been done ages ago. I remember Suzi Leather had a damn good try, when she was head of the Charity Commission, yet people still keep banging on about it as some miracle solution.

The deductible for private education is allowed in some countries, e g AUstralia. If you educate privately, for whatever reason (usually religious or SN), then there is a credit note voucher for not using state funded education that can be offset to the fees. So everyone pays for education through taxation, but parents have flexibility on the school that receives the money.

The voucher system that has been floated by previous Conservative thinkers works on the same lines. Every child has an annual 'allowance' of about £5.5K, to be spent only on education, by right from the state. Parents and children choose the school that gets the money. If you want private education, you pay any the additional cost. Sadly it doesn't help if you are MC and live in a catchment with a predominantly blue collar food processing or agricultural intake, because schools that excel at meeting the needs of one cohort often fail more 'intellectual' students.

Our small local town has about 10 hairdressing and beauty salons, because the local school has an exceptionally good BTEC programme that is highly rated. It also has one industrial park that is home to two very highly rated testing labs. The science companies recruit in Poland and Czechoslovakia, not locally, because the local school is poor on science at A level. The beauty salons come and go as dads in construction give their princesses a start. But there are not many customers, because ours is a low wage economy and beauty treatments come a long way down a family's budget, so they fail with monotonous regularity. I do seriously wonder and fear for the UK's skills. VAT on private school fees is not going to change minds very much.

The usual cliches wheeled out about private school children/parents/wealth.

Dd2 is at a very expensive private school, she has ASD, she was rejected by our local secondary modern.
We are saving the state hundreds of thousands of pounds, there are lots of 'quirky' children at our school, lots of parents remortgaging to pay school fees or borrowing.

It's an inequality that my daughter has a disability, we are dealing with it in the best way that we can.

Did anyone challenge the poster who said that children became unpopular and snobby when they started private school? I doubt it, it's acceptable to call children names if their parents have a bit of money.

Happy - a change in rules over VAT and charitable status won't close down private schools or stop most people from using them

It would close down quite a few within a few years.

Not the most famous public schools (Eton and Harrow and thirty like are are safe), and not the most oversubscribed private schools (such as RGS Guildford).

But plenty of other private schools slightly struggle for numbers. And large numbers of their parents struggle to afford fees. A fee rise of such a huge proportion would see a lot of closures.

Our small local town has about 10 hairdressing and beauty salons, because the local school has an exceptionally good BTEC programme that is highly rated. It also has one industrial park that is home to two very highly rated testing labs. The science companies recruit in Poland and Czechoslovakia, not locally, because the local school is poor on science at A level. The beauty salons come and go as dads in construction give their princesses a start. But there are not many customers, because ours is a low wage economy and beauty treatments come a long way down a family's budget, so they fail with monotonous regularity. I do seriously wonder and fear for the UK's skills. VAT on private school fees is not going to change minds very much.

I think your small local town is a microcosm of what is happening across much of the UK.

Instead of substantially improving investment in education to address the issue, it's easier for people to believe getting rid of Poles and Czechs will solve the problem. If they leave, the science companies are highly likely to leave too.

However, the problems in the small town above will never be addressed until education is rightly considered the number one concern in the UK.

BeBeatrix but what would be achieved by closing these schools? The children would return to the state sector which from what I gather from on here is already bursting at the seams in many arenas. How does this benefit children already in state ed? How will this address inequality?

BeBeatrix but what would be achieved by closing these schools? The children would return to the state sector which from what I gather from on here is already bursting at the seams in many arenas. How does this benefit children already in state ed? How will this address inequality?

That's my point.

VAT on school fees would lead to school closures, which would put further pressure on the state sector, as I stated. The implication being that it would therefore be a bad thing.

Further pressure on the state sector must be avoided where possible, therefore VAT on school fees must be avoided.

And - Happy - I was quoting someone else who was quoting you. They were saying that the VAT wouldn't close down private schools, I was pointing out that it would.

*We have also experienced DC who have moved on to state schools ignoring our DC and looking down at them. And these DC are hardly deprived - living in million pound houses (much more expensive than ours), going to outstanding state schools, going on fancy holidays and educational trips with their schools etc etc.

So I don't think one can say that their behaviour can be put down to them feeling inferior - they feel that it's good to taunt children at private schools and put them down.*

7214743615 - may I call you 7214? - yes, I think you are right. My dd was surprised but had her former classmates said hello maybe they would have got into trouble from their peers for consorting with the 'enemy'.

Minifingerz - do you encourage your children to dislike privately educated children on principle?

Dapple. What we have is the next generation of ''Wealthy" Corbyn loving (Seamus Milne style) lefties practicing their contrived "UP THE WORKERS" act ! By the time these kids have left University , they will be fully indoctrinated with their "Socalist Worker " beliefs.

I find it quite farcical the Class/loathing and hatred towards private/grammar schools tends to come from those who have benefited from them. Certainly it is true on this site..

Putting kids into private education doesn't save the public licence purse anything as the schools still get state funding for pupils. OK it may not bedit the same direction amount but they have the money to employ business managers directly for the purpose of identifying and accessing public grants. Surely private education is a luxury item and should be subject to VAT. I don't begrudge people private education but I'm sick to death of people disadvantaging my children so that little Tristram gets the benefits of the best money can buy.

Silly man. DD applied for a place at the school his DD goes to. It is our closest school. We live far, far closer than he does. (And no OP, it is not Holland Park.) DD had to take a bus past the school each day and then get on a tube, in order to get to her private school. I had to work full time to pay the fees.

The state school she was allocated was one we had not heard of and which involved more than one bus and waiting at bus stops in genuinely dodgy bits of South London. We asked to look around but were refused. Instead they sent her a contract for her to sign confirming she would not bring drugs or weapons into the school. If Gove had been faced with the same choices as we were, I think he would have made the same decision. But obviously he was not.

Did OCStock just state that children from parents who are employed in roles that are "Blue collar, agricultural or processing"based are less academic tan to see from the middle classes!
How dare you! These children are just as bright but not being given the education that will enable them to achieve higher than their parents. That sort of view is disgusting and should not go unchallenged.

Putting kids into private education doesn't save the public licence purse anything as the schools still get state funding for pupils.

State schools receive funding per pupil.

If the children from the private sector entered the state sector, and the total funding stayed the same, then the resources per child would be decreased considerably.

If the children from the private sector entered the state sector, and the funding per head stayed the same, this would cost the taxpayer a huge amount of money.

A sudden 15-20% increase in school would drive a lot of children (mine included) out of the private sector. Policies should be evidence based. I find it very hard to believe that such a policy would increase the amount of funding available for state education but the onus on those proposing it is to prove that it would.