Michael Gove proposes imposing VAT on private school fees

[OCSockOrphanage]

In an Op Ed piece for The Times today (Fri 24 Feb), teaching's Nemesis suggests that school fees should be subject to VAT at 20% so the revenue can be ploughed into improving state provision.

Link

Opinions? I reckon there will be a few?

I do very much in believe in equality for all but charing VAT on school fees isn't going to address this.
How do you iron out life's inequalities? There impact is massive and more important than schooling.
Better housing, better educated parents, better salaries, abject poverty versus comfortable existence, better health, better diet, more motivated parents, more beautiful, happier home life versus dysfunctional parents, location, opportunities?

Happy - a change in rules over VAT and charitable status won't close down private schools or stop most people from using them.

Doesn't change the fact that as a society we should be striving for equality of opportunity and for fairness for children. Changing admissions criteria for state schools, increasing the incomes of less well funded state schools to match that of the best funded, and yes, looking at tax legislation which benefits the private sector - all these things are morally and socially the right thing to do.

The other category of private schools is those for children with SEN which are met at residential boarding schools. These places are mainly funded by the local authority in which the child's family lives. Fees at those schools are incredibly expensive as the children need huge levels of support.

"and switching to lottery based or fair-banding admissions systems would be a good start"

Fair-banding fair enough.

But lottery? With all the impacts on pollution and congestion levels? And no evidence (eg from Brighton, where it's been running for a while) that it has made any difference whatsoever to outcomes).

Better just to abolish parental rights to express a preference and allocate DC to schools. Though of course, you'd probably have to find the money to buy out VA schools which own their own real estate.

Even a stopted clock is right twice a day.

"Better housing, better educated parents, better salaries, abject poverty versus comfortable existence, better health, better diet, more motivated parents, more beautiful, happier home life versus dysfunctional parents, location, opportunities?"

Not being able to do everything doesn't excuse doing nothing to try to reduce inequality.

I wonder what stopted means

"And no evidence (eg from Brighton, where it's been running for a while) that it has made any difference whatsoever to outcomes)."

Because Brighton still uses catchment as well as random allocation - ie, they randomly select within the catchment. Any unallocated places get awarded by lottery with no catchment criteria. However, if schools are hugely over subscribed as the most popular schools are, then this doesn't help.

"Happy - a change in rules over VAT and charitable status won't close down private schools or stop most people from using them."
Thats not what you've been implying.
The morally and right thing to do is to address the fact that many live in the most dreadful abject poverty in a benefits system that is conspiring against them, a health care system that is failing them and their children and a society that believes that the majority at the bottom are lazy scrounging scum who have no intention of doing a days work as long as they live a view perpetuated and encouraged by large parts of our media.
Education is I agree important but as a society we need a whole sale change of attitude, to the most disadvantaged, housing, wages, health care, etc also have to be addressed and VAT on school fees will not have any impact on that, just anger and worry the MC's and those at the top probably wont even notice it.

"Better just to abolish parental rights to express a preference and allocate DC to schools."

Might result in vastly more political pressure to improve the least desirable schools.

In my area there is no outrage about the three failing secondary schools at the bottom of the league tables, because the sort of people who would hassle their MP, start media campaigns, have effective fundraising drives, or join the school body as a governor wouldn't dream of sending their kids to them.

"The morally and right thing to do"

Is all of the things you mention

AND

stop using the tax system to benefit private schools, as they entrench and deepen social and educational inequality.

Eastpoint my son is at one of those SEN schools and we are scrimping to pay the fees - it is very expensive. I have a photo of my son in his school uniform right by my computer at work to remind me why I am working all the hours I can. My son was not thriving in mainstream state at all

"In my area there is no outrage about the three failing secondary schools at the bottom of the league tables, because the sort of people who would hassle their MP, start media campaigns, have effective fundraising drives, or join the school body as a governor wouldn't dream of sending their kids to them."
I struggle to see how VAT on fees will address this, unless your hoping the MCs who remove their children from their local private school because they can't afford the rise in fees will send their DC's there.

"stop using the tax system to benefit private schools, as they entrench and deepen social and educational inequality."
But you yourself said it wont stop parens sending their children to private schools so how will this be achieved? Am is missing something here or just being dim?

mini

The same in our area. Nobody hassling MP's here, parents just avoid the worst schools and if their dc are sent there they just suck it up. Tbh though the better schools are only fractionally better round here.

I must admit to being the same, and if added VAT meant we could no longer afford to send dd to school, we would be home educating again.
I know that's not publicly spirited but will readily admit to putting my own dc first.

"I know that's not publicly spirited but will readily admit to putting my own dc first."

Dont worry gilly you and 90% of parents.

Not only should most lose charitable status, they should lose huge subsidies given to CCF that state schools have to pay for. Private education is subsidised in all sorts of hidden ways from staff training, interest from endowments set up for children of the poor to access to university admissions.
My children's independent had stalls and speakers from Oxford, Durham, Cambridge, Exeter, London, Bristol, St Andrews, Edinburgh and many more at their careers fair. Local state schools tried to set up similar event (serving approx 12 times number of pupils) and got not a single offer of support. Having seen both sides, the playing field is anything but level.

So Crumbs would you take access to university admissions/career fares away from private schools? Do you really think that educated ambitious parents will not find other ways of getting their children this kind of info/help. My DS2 never went to a career fare at his school, I dont even know if they did them but he sitting with five offers from top RG universities. Its about expectation parental and school and if that information isn't available at school you find it for yourself.
I also don't personally believe we should come down to the lowest common denominator in an effort to address inequalities in our society rather best practices in both sectors should be promoted and adopted by all.
Is staff training in the private sector subsidised? I worked in the private sector and our definitely training wasn't. especially as much of it was aimed at the independent sector

"I know that's not publicly spirited but will readily admit to putting my own dc first."

Parents abandon any pretended to community spiritedness when it comes to school choices on the whole (although I know a small number who haven't but they are rare folk). That's as is, but it doesn't mean governments should facilitate this through legislation which advantages private schools.

No I wouldn't stop any child accessing information about university but I'd make sure it was equitable- so regional events not held in private schools at detriment of state pupils.
The independent sector training is very heavily subsidised by state sector.
Independent are sitting on resources set up to educate the children of the poor but giving the benefit to the very rich.
It would be lovely if state were funded at same level as independent but that's not going to happen so at least we can ensure VAT subsidies are redirected towards state. I don't doubt my four youngest had huge advantages conferred by boarding at a top independent (not academically, as happens. The comp gave my eldest two similar results).

Atheistmantis - that works both ways: my dd went to a local day prep school and some of her year group went to a private school and some to a state school in the same town.
During her first term at the private school my dd saw some of her former class mates who were now at the comprehensive and said hello. They ignored her so she said hello again at which point they turned round and walked off.
My dd was taken aback as she'd been friends with these people but now she was at the private school she was evidently the 'enemy'. Quit sad really.

"our definitely training wasn't. especially as much of it was aimed at the independent sector"

Just out of interest, what training can teachers have that is irrelevant to children from poorer families?

My children's independent had stalls and speakers from Oxford, Durham, Cambridge, Exeter, London, Bristol, St Andrews, Edinburgh and many more at their careers fair. Local state schools tried to set up similar event (serving approx 12 times number of pupils) and got not a single offer of support.

Could you provide evidence for this statement?

Because I actually work in a university. And we send lot of representatives into state schools and very, very rarely send people to private schools that already send lots of students to university.

Interestingly, a lot of state schools actually completely refuse to engage with us and ignore offers of summer schools, masterclasses etc.

Mini don't be so paranoid the training was related to boarding.

"The independent sector training is very heavily subsidised by state sector."
What training? Neither I or my colleagues attended heavily state subsidised training.