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Education

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Michael Gove proposes imposing VAT on private school fees

185 replies

OCSockOrphanage · 24/02/2017 09:07

In an Op Ed piece for The Times today (Fri 24 Feb), teaching's Nemesis suggests that school fees should be subject to VAT at 20% so the revenue can be ploughed into improving state provision.

Link

Opinions? I reckon there will be a few?

OP posts:
minifingerz · 25/02/2017 17:22

"My dd was taken aback as she'd been friends with these people but now she was at the private school she was evidently the 'enemy'. Quit sad really."

Sad for your dd.

Her former friends probably had a sense of being inferior in some way, because that's what our current system does - divides children into groups along social lines, then puts hugely disproportionate resources into those children who were already at the front of the queue when brains and ability were being handed out. It really is 'them and us'. Social apartheid in education. Luckily for your dd she's on the nice side of the fence.

LumelaMme · 25/02/2017 17:24

My children's independent had stalls and speakers from Oxford, Durham, Cambridge, Exeter, London, Bristol, St Andrews, Edinburgh and many more at their careers fair. Local state schools tried to set up similar event (serving approx 12 times number of pupils) and got not a single offer of support. Having seen both sides, the playing field is anything but level.
That's bloody odd, as our local sixth form college had a huge university fair, with stalls from every uni under the sun, including iirc Oxbridge and definitely loads of Russell Group. I also know that Oxbridge put a lot of effort into encouraging applications from state schools, and have been for years.

Dapplegrey1 · 25/02/2017 17:24

Independent are sitting on resources set up to educate the children of the poor but giving the benefit to the very rich

Crumbs - iirc you said you had got bursaries for your children's private education despite having an income of £350,000 a year. Do you not think your bursaries should have gone to someone who couldn't afford the fees rather than benefitting a rich family such as yours?

minifingerz · 25/02/2017 17:27

"Interestingly, a lot of state schools actually completely refuse to engage with us and ignore offers of summer schools, masterclasses etc"

Possibly because staff working at state schools are already on their knees just trying to deliver the curriculum to large groups of children with nowhere near enough resources. That's when the important extra stuff goes by the by. Because I'm pretty sure teachers in state schools aren't constitutionally against their pupils attending good universities when they leave...

SoupDragon · 25/02/2017 17:29

Her former friends probably had a sense of being inferior in some way,

No, they were probably just rude and ill mannered.

GetRidOfWelfare · 25/02/2017 17:29

This is sad. Education is a luxury, not a right.

BeBeatrix · 25/02/2017 17:35

I'm no fan of private education, but this proposal is horribly self-defeating:

A 20% rise in fees (well, let's call it 17% since some VAT can be clawed back) will mean a lot of children instantly needing places in the state sector.

Quite apart from the increase in costs from those children, there simply aren't the places for them.

minifingerz · 25/02/2017 17:36

Private schools really need to stop using the bursary system to strip talent and brains from state schools.

Why use charity money to benefit the most successful, best supported children in state schools when those children who really need help are those who get nothing from home and who are failing in education?

I'd like to see private schools funding extra tutoring for failing children in failing state schools, not using bursary funds to pay the fees for little Jane Smith/Bindi Patel who have sat on the top table all the way through school and who have educated helicopter parents.

happygardening · 25/02/2017 17:38

"VAT subsidies are redirected towards state."
Ok lets forget the non existent ideal world do you really think that VAT subsidies will be redirected towards state ed? The NHS and social care is collapsing under the strain of an ever increasing and exceedingly expensive elderly population as I've said already (maybe on another thread) if the government are going to divy out any more money and its a big if (I very much doubt it) then I hope and this that it will go that way. Not that it will make any difference.
"No I wouldn't stop any child accessing information about university but I'd make sure it was equitable- so regional events not held in private schools at detriment of state pupils."
This is not the fault of the independent schools where these events are held I very much doubt they are delibrately making it an exclusive event.The only one DS2's school had (well that I know about, but I wasn't great at reading emails about this kind of thing) was a gap year fair, there were definitely girls there no sure where from and some boys who I don't think went to his school could be wrong of course. Info about universities was primarily provided by self research, older boys and HM's.
One deputy at an independent school was telling me that they opened their careers fare to the local state school not one pupils attended.
"Independent are sitting on resources set up to educate the children of the poor but giving the benefit to the very rich."
True but a few of the very old ones are trying to grow their bursary pot often by receiving those above mentioned endowments from old boys and current parents and try and widen access. I accept that its always going to be limited but at least they are trying.

minifingerz · 25/02/2017 17:43

"Her former friends probably had a sense of being inferior in some way,

No, they were probably just rude and ill mannered."

Not so rude and ill-mannered that the dd hadn't been friends with them to start with...,

Children are not stupid. They recognise unearned privilege. They are aware of social segregation - our school system plays that drama out under their noses. How should they respond? Are they supposed to not bothered or offended by it?

happygardening · 25/02/2017 17:47

"Private schools really need to stop using the bursary system to strip talent and brains from state schools."
Why should super bright children sit bored stiff in the state sector where in your words staff are so on their knees they haven't got time or motivation to sort out the "important extra stuff"? Why should all children be bought down to the lowest denominator? Why can't they compete for and win a bursary to a super selective independent school and all that it has to offer?

user7214743615 · 25/02/2017 17:47

Her former friends probably had a sense of being inferior in some way, because that's what our current system does - divides children into groups along social lines, then puts hugely disproportionate resources into those children who were already at the front of the queue when brains and ability were being handed out.

We have also experienced DC who have moved on to state schools ignoring our DC and looking down at them. And these DC are hardly deprived - living in million pound houses (much more expensive than ours), going to outstanding state schools, going on fancy holidays and educational trips with their schools etc etc.

So I don't think one can say that their behaviour can be put down to them feeling inferior - they feel that it's good to taunt children at private schools and put them down.

happygardening · 25/02/2017 17:52

"had a sense of being inferior in some way"
I just don't recognise these children and I work with children in both sectors.
My DS is currently working with other older teens most from state education, many have a very limited education, none feel inferior to him in anyway. He likes them and they clearly like him, no one has even asked him where he went to school or by the way how many IGCSE's/Pre U's he has, most has no idea he was going to university in September let alone an RG one and he doesn't tell anyone its totally irrelevant.

minifingerz · 25/02/2017 17:53

"One deputy at an independent school was telling me that they opened their careers fare to the local state school not one pupils attended."

Maybe state school children are intimidated at the thought of attending an event at a private school.

My dc's heaving scruffy comp (which has mold growing on the sign out the front) is right next door to a glorious and massive private school which looks a bit like Hogwarts, surrounded by acres of exquisite grounds. They see the parents dropping the kids off in Range Rovers and Bentleys. They are definitely intimidated by it and recognise that the social environment of the private school is vastly different to their school.

It's like being told - this is a club you are not welcome to join unless you have money or brains or both. Except for one evening, then you can come in and sample some of the goodies. Hardly appealing or inclusive.

happygardening · 25/02/2017 17:54

he is not he was.

happygardening · 25/02/2017 18:01

"Maybe state school children are intimidated at the thought of attending an event at a private school."
mini extraordinary you can put a negative spin on everything can't you?
Is this what the wonderful state ed. does for you? You feel intimidated attending a university fair at private school God help us how are you going to manage in real life? If that's the case every penny I spent on school fees was worth it, forget extra curricular activities and an intellectual education, not only does my DS not feel intimidated sitting down for dinner with sone of the wealthiest people in the world, he also is quite happy munching a cheap cheese sandwich chatting with those who were state educated with no GCSE's and who are struggling to rub two pennies together.

MrsBernardBlack · 25/02/2017 18:07

It's like being told - this is a club you are not welcome to join

But who is telling them this? The private school who invites them to the university fair, or dogs in the manger like you?

happygardening · 25/02/2017 18:12

"It's like being told - this is a club you are not welcome to join unless you have money or brains or both. Except for one evening, then you can come in and sample some of the goodies. Hardly appealing or inclusive"
Or their parents could take the chip off their shoulders and grow up and put a positive spin on it, go and have a look around, sample the goodies and enjoy it, your as good as they are, money Bentleys and Range Rovers and brains doesn't mean they're better than you, exquisite grounds when the chips are down don't mean shit frankly, their environment maybe different from yours but different doesn't mean have to mean better or worse for that matter.

minifingerz · 25/02/2017 18:21

Are we not supposed to mind that the richest, brainiest children in the UK get twice as much spent on their education as children in state schools, take up a hugely disproportionate number of top university places and top jobs in industry, the media, law and medicine, and are carefully protected from the educational fall out of social inequality?

Are we not supposed to mind, and are our children not supposed to notice the huge and unearned privileges of their peers?

Hmm

A 'chip on the shoulder'. You bet. Fuck off!

Genevieva · 25/02/2017 18:22

Happygardening, I couldn't agree more about the race to the bottom that some posters seem to want.

I think most people have forgotten that student teachers who do a PGCE usually pay for their own training and take on debts to cover their cost of living during what is an extremely challenging year. Some teachers in independent schools and academies do not have QTS. Any professional development they do will be paid for by the school that employs them.

To the poster who mentioned a careers fair, I simply don't believe you. It is far more likely that the school careers department invited pupils who had recently left to come back and talk about their university and subject. On the whole, independent schools have to organise school trips to universities or suggest pupils and parents go under their own steam because universities don't come to them.

Universities work very hard to widen access and it is disingenuous to suggest otherwise without proof. I have found quite a few state sector colleagues to be militantly unhelpful about remaining on school premises more than 30 minutes after the end of the school day for any more than their contracted maximum number of evenings. As these tend to be taken up with parent-teacher consultations, it can make running events like careers evenings unnecessarily challenging.

There has also been fabricated nonsense about some sort of mysterious network that is accessible only to the privately educated and that provides them with a secret pass into all sorts of prestigious jobs. It sounds like the Masons or something akin to a Harry Potter world in which state school kids are stuck being Muggles. I have never seen any evidence of this. There are private school children with successful relatives in a position to give their own child a leg up, but I am sure that there are children at state schools who have the luck of a family link into a career too. There are also plenty o private school kids who enter careers they have no links to because they have been taught well, concentrated in lessons and achieved the results needed - something anyone at a good state school is able to do.

The issue has always been how to lift the kids from deprived backgrounds into a position to benefit from good education in any sector. It has been an intractable problem for generations and the only convincing research I have read on it came from a study in the US that I read about a decade ago. I think it took place in Chicago and, broadly speaking, the suggestion was that when no more than 10% of the class are from the lowest socio-economic groups teachers can integrate them and teach well, so that the child out performs their projected level of attainment. Any more than that and the whole class tends to suffer a set back in their educational attainment. It is really important that this is done young, as the later it is implemented the less effect it has.

MrsBernardBlack · 25/02/2017 18:26

Are we not supposed to mind, and are our children not supposed to notice the huge and unearned privileges of their peers?

Mind it all you like, but it is pathetic and ultimately pointless. The people it hurts most are the bright poor kids, whom you claim to care so much about.

It is your shoulder chip that is holding them back and denying them fantastic opportunities, not wealthy private school parents.

Blossomdeary · 25/02/2017 18:31

Remove charitable status would be the way to go - they are businesses not charities.

MrsMarigold · 25/02/2017 18:45

So you aren't burdening the state with the cost of educating your kids, you are probably a higher rate taxpayer so already taxed to death, then oh yeah pay for everybody else. Honesty Gove can piss off.

I know there is a funding crisis in state schools but voluntary fees are the way to go if people in state schools can afford it, and plenty can, obviously it couldn't be obligatory but if standards are to rise, I think why not?

happygardening · 25/02/2017 18:46

"Unearned"?????
Most parents are paying for their DC's out of some sort of earned (Im using the term broadly) income.
Yes care but let's not drag everyone down. I don't believe in the ethos of "because I can't have it you can't have it either" if that the sort of defeat attitude state ed and some parents are teaching children no wonder that China, India South Asia are snapping at our heals and even over taking us. We've close friends living in the latter they certainly aren't thinking like that. Excellence should be encouraged, if the some independent are so much better, they should be held up as example of what can be achieved I'm not talking about polo manicured lawns and golf courses these ultimately are just window dressings but aspiration, excellence and expectation, something to aim for not knock down.

happygardening · 25/02/2017 18:48

I do worry that "voluntary fees" in education will then creep into the NHS I personally am completely committed to free health care for all.

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