People who are in favour of grammar schools....

[BertrandRussell]

....what is your proposal for the majority who are not selected?

"minifingerz the stigma attached to these well intented schools will be hundred times more than the secondary moderns"

I'm not recommending this is done. I'm asking why we are focusing on the needs of the highest achieving children at the expense of other children when it's the lowest attaining we ought to be most worried about.

But nobody seems to give a shit!

OK .Here's a practical example:

www.parliamenthill.camden.sch.uk/

Parliament Hill school has 52% of its pupils disadvantaged but gets a very good 67% 5 A-C and a seriously impressive 35% of GCSE grades are markes A and A*. High Achievers get average A- , same as in Kent grammars.

So does it

a) Become a grammar so the majority of current pupils go elsewhere. They will no longer see their high-achieving peers. Are they more likely to think that they too can be successful or less.
b) a grammar opens up close by and the high achieving pupils leave for that - same results as above?

And as I understand the argument about fairness presented by the pro-grammars on this board they think is quite fair that this school should become a grammar (or a secondary modern) and therefore pupils who live nearby should no longer be able to access it in its current form?

So what they're really saying is an able child has more right to a great school than the so-called non-able who live close to it. Even when as in this case the majority are not wealthy?

HPFA- I have never heard of this school, but googled it and put its postcode into rightmove. The cheapest home to buy within a quarter of a mile of the school is a Studio Flat for £325,000. How are the pupils at this school disadvantaged?

Are we allowed to mention petitions?

you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/keep-the-ban-on-new-grammar-schools

The FEA is a non-political and well-respected body.

I like the sound of the FINNISH school system.

I have just watched the news and Northern Ireland has 45% of children attending grammar school.

This year in NI 79.1% of all GCSE entrants achieved A-C grades compared to 66.9% in England. I don't think you can blame the PM for wanting to replicate these results for English pupils.

Thanks Dione, I asked this question up thread, but no one answered.

Could the Roman Catholic schools be part of the better results though?

Burntheblacksuit - HPFA has already indicated that 52% of Parliament Hill's pupils are on free school meals/pupil premium which is way above average. Leafy it isn't.

London's funny like that - there's very little correlation between high house prices and the wealth of those that attend state schools in a borough. I live somewhere v expensive, but the majority of home owners go private, while the rest of the population tends to be pretty deprived - there's very little middle ground. As a consequence, 60% are FSM, lots of recent refugees, social problems etc.

The outstanding state catholic schools cater for some of the poorest in this town, alongside quite a few of the relatively well off. They are obviously doing something right, as they get fantastic results that any selective school would be proud of. However these school are not available to the majority of children, particularly those of no faith, who come bottom of the selection criteria regardless of income/class/motivation. That isn't 'fair'. My children fall into this category. In an ideal world I'd love them to go to schools like this, but they can't unless we (I) find God. The other comprehensive options are academically underwhelming to say the least. What proportion of underachieving children to high achieving children makes a difference to the outcome of the poorest?

minifingerz the opportunities for academically low achieving children probably doesn't look the same as those for the academic ones. Whether sticking them with children who clearly learn school subjects faster and easier in the same school really helps them or is inspirational to them I do not know.

They need something different. Are the current comps are helping them a lot?

Burntheblack I assume they are mainly in social housing or living in private renting on housing Benefit. The figure is from the D of E data. Living in a bed and breakfast hostel in the next street to a million pound house doesn't make you advantaged.

house prices don't show you how many housing association or council houses there are in an area

But as we've seen with Parliament Hill it clearly is possible to meet the needs of the less able without disadvantaging the high achievers. Why doesn't the D of E use the data at their disposal to identify these sorts of schools and apply what they do at other schools?

DD's school is not so disadvantaged as Parliament Hill but it has national average FSM.I could tell the D of E how they achieve great results for all. There is nothing they do in the school that could not be done by other schools.

They are the results for all pupils including RC ones. However Catholic schools in NI are not the same as in England. Because of the Troubles, areas became ghettoised. In order to get into a Catholic primary school, all you have to do is live in the catchment area. After that, you apply to whatever secondary you wish. There are no letters from priests or proof of mass attendance needed. Many Catholic schools are in really deprived areas with high FSM intakes.

Indeed one if our most successful grammars has 25% FSM pupils.

I personally think the Catholic Church should be allowed to run schools, but not to choose the intake. It should be their privilege to serve their communities. Not a sort of bribe they hold over catholic families to make them tow the line.

Comps are so big that there is no reason why children of all different academic abilities can't be catered for through streaming within the school. Why does it need to be completely separate? Then there is the ability for people to move up and down throughout their time at school. Unfortunately, the really good comps tend to be surrounded by expensive housing in my experience locally.

I am a hypocrite as well as my son goes to the local grammar mainly because there was the choice between that and a local boys comp which has a rubbish reputation for discipline as well as academically. He is also very academic so it wasn't a huge struggle for him to do the test. If there had been a great comp in our catchment I may not have felt the need.

Youngest son will be taking the exam next year, if he doesn't get in as I will feel like one of my son's will be getting a hugely superior education to the other. We can't afford to move into a better catchment.

EllyThe problem with the NI example is that it doesn't seem to work in England. The selective authorities in England do not get better results than the non-selective (once you allow for the socio-economics) which you would expect them to. So either the success of NI schools is down to other factors or it is down to grammar and secondary moderns interacting with the society there in a different way than they do in England.

I have a few guesses but certainly not the expert knowledge to expose them to public view. I think I'd rightly be castigated by NI posters if I did that.

I don't blame pro-grammars for using NI as a weapon - I'd do the same if results were the other way round (and do do the same with Finland) but I think it would be very dangerous to assume you could apply the same system to a very different society and expect the same results. And NI does score lower on PISA tests than England.

I live in Kent where we already have the grammar system.

DS1 didn't pass the 11+ , education didn't click for him until Year 10 when he started to specialise in his subjects. He went on to do well at GCSEs and then transferred to,the local grammar for 6th form. He's going to a Russell Group university next week to study Chemical Engineering.

Although, on paper, his non-grammar school wasn't high achieving, it was the making of him.

I think that it doesn't necessarily matter what kind of school a child goes to because in the end everyone finds a place.

Equally, he told me of many students who had passed the 11+ and been tutored to within an inch of their lives to do so and then post-GCSEs didn't put the work in so,we're asked to leave the 6th form.

I grew up in London and went to a comprehensive, it was awful.

HPFA, stop weaponising Northern Ireland. We've had quite enough of that thank you.

Dione Should have chosen a different word -apologies.

However pot and kettle is coming to mind - I thought my post was fair and balanced.

DioneTheDiabolist Fri 09-Sep-16 13:40:43 This year in NI 79.1% of all GCSE entrants achieved A-C grades compared to 66.9% in England. I don't think you can blame the PM for wanting to replicate these results for English pupils.

How is this an argument for Grammar Schools. You are giveing a figure for results attanted off the back of 41% of children going to Grammar school which is only 12% better than the results attanted off the back of a much small number of children going to Grammar school in England (What % of children do currently attend Grammar School in England BTW).

Surely if comps. in England were such failures the gap between these two systems would be much bigger?

Out of interest what are the results of the the low and middle ability children in the non-academically selective Schools in NI compared to the Low and middle ability children in the non-academically selective schools in England?

How do you determine whether the results in NI are due to the Grammar system rather than faith selection?

Go to other normal state schools like before.

but the normal state schools won't be like they were before.They won't be comprehensive .They will be secondary modern!

I passed the 11+ many years ago. That term I wrote a piece comparing people who didn't pass the 11+ to chickens. I shit you not.

I was only 11 so I won't take 100% of the responsibility; I grew up in a snobbish family - churchgoing as well, though not exactly Christian - that assumed academic and professional success would happen for them. I have no doubt that some of that is still in me.

More than that, though, I grew up in a selective area where public policy is that children can be split into academic and non-academic at age 11. That gets internalised. I've no doubt it feels worse to be told you've failed some arbitrary test at 11, but there is damage to those who pass as well.

That the government is bringing this load of old codswallop back as their grab anything to distract from Brexit headline policy of the new session makes me want to - I don't know. Do something. Something violent.

2016Hopeful Fri 09-Sep-16 14:00:56 Unfortunately, the really good comps tend to be surrounded by expensive housing in my experience locally.

So are some Grammar Schools. Take a look at the property prices in Marlow, Bucks. Also take a look at the Grammar School in that area:

www.compare-school-performance.service.gov.uk/school/136781?tab=absence-and-pupil-population

Good news for some:

Nicky Morgan speaks out against selection:

www.facebook.com/NickyMorgan

Likely that Gove will do the same?