In praise of comprehensive schools

[FreshHorizons]

It was cheering to see the Sutton Trust announce that 60% of Team GB medalists came from comprehensive schools.

I have finally come off a thread where certain people can't find a good word to say about comprehensive schools. They equate them with mixed ability teaching, poor behaviour and an inability to stretch bright children.

I would like a thread to celebrate the best of comprehensive education.

In my case it allowed my 3 , very different, children to be able to go to the same school without being judged by outsiders. It meant the stability of knowing one school over a long period of time and them knowing our family. It meant that days off and parent evenings didn't clash and that money was saved by handing down uniform. They were able to move up with the bulk from their primary school. They were able to mix with children of different abilities and backgrounds, as you do in adult life. It meant being able to enjoy education for the joy of learning new things, without the stress of an exam that would determine their path in life, aged only 10 or 11yrs.

Those things didn't really matter, although they were helpful.

What really mattered was that they could all blossom at their own rate.
They all got a good education and are now happily established in careers- the careers that they chose.

It wasn't all about the academic side- there were opportunities in sport, music, outdoor activities etc.

It would be nice to have some success stories. Please don't post about crap schools- start another thread for that if you have grievances you want to air.

It is the summer, the sun is out and some happy, optimistic stories would be nice.

I spent from 18-33 living with and working for my uncle and his manufactoring business which was based on Oldham ! My mum pushed me out of the 'door' because she understood that as a 'Autistic ' person i needed to 'experience' life and work in a caring structured and secure environment! Besides that no one would employ me locally in Essex !

I know Oldham and Ashton Under Lyne (Tameside) very well both towns have suffered 'massive' middle class flight south towards Cheshire East and Trafford . A friend is desperate to leave Ashton ( which is going through a bit of a 'gang' problem at present) and relocate to Trafford in catchment for Wellington School (should she fail ) . At present she is the last year of paying £10k a year for the only private school in Oldham for her YR 13 DD .

How big is Trafford ?
How big is Tameside?

Just that I judge things by the Peter Symonds 40 mile across catchment

Anything less than that is commuting distance so differences between schools should track bus routes and dual carriageways rather than anything to do with the choices in a 5 mile radius

the only private school in Oldham

Which is the one I went to, funnily enough. It was pretty crap then, my parents wasted their money.

At least you're acknowledging the social mobility argument is crap though Sandy since clearly you see the grammar school places going to the middle classes! In fact although I completely disagree with your arguments they are considerably more honest than many of the other pro-grammars!

How big is Trafford ? 41 sq miles
How big is Tameside? 50 sq miles

Sorry fat fingers that should be 40 not 50

41 square miles - 4.1 x 10 miles
50 sqm = 5 x 10 miles
its possible to walk across those LEAs let alone cycle, or get the bus
or shock horror drive
those are not "areas" for education, they are patches

the results in those schools will be impacted by kids moving at least 5 miles each way each day

so the LEA results reflect nothing other than parental choice or lack thereof
eg
Kingston is not a bright borough in London - it just happens to have Tiffin in it
Tiffin has a 20 mile catchment

Anybody looking at Comp schools has to look at where the kids go to school from what postcode
and at what carbon cost for the long distance runs

What was wrong with Hathershaw or Grange then HPFA !

"its possible to walk across those LEAs let alone cycle"

Crossing the M6

sandyholme
you seem to be gratuitously missing the point
What was wrong with Hathershaw or Grange then HPFA !

Please list for us the number of people you know who chose their nearest private school as against the best one for their child

Please show us the grammar school that recruits all of its pupils from within a 5 mile radius

as if we are travelling less far for a comp that you would propose us travelling for a segregated school, what is your issue with us ?

We didn't live in Tameside so both of those schools were too far away. Basically, my parents bought into the myth that comps couldn't cope with bright children! My brother refused to go to a "posh" school so he went to the comp where he got equal A-Levels to me and went to a Russell Group University ( although I don't think the term existed then).

Hathershaw and Grange (not to be confused with The Grange in 'Hartford') are in Oldham !

The private school mentioned had to join the boys/girls and abolish the 11+ exam to retain solvent.

I think what remains of the ever decreasing 'middle' class in Oldham educate their children there.

Both Schools had their problems in the mid 1990s , in particular both became 'ghettoised' Grange became a predominantly Asian school whereas Hathershaw became a school with many of the problems associated with white working class boys !

The lack of community intergration between cultures and schools led indirectly/directly to the Oldham riots of 2000.

Oldham has had a fight for 'survival' since the demise of 'king cotton', however the riots may have been a fatal blow to the town.

to remain solvent !

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/20/how-grammar-schools-can-work-for-everyone-including-those-who-do/

An Interesting historical fact about Tameside (Ashton Under Lyne) is that one of the hardest fights to retain Grammar Schools in 1979 took place there .

Tameside's Conservative council took the grammar school case all the way to the House of Lords such was the positive for the grammar school cause on Tameside's doorsteps .

It is quite extraordinary to think of Tameside Council at any time being 'Conservative' .This tells me two things first there was/is large scale grass 'roots' support for grammar schools (when the Fiona Millar's stop trying to lecture people) enough to cause an earthquake politically!

The second thing it tells me is that Ashton and Tameside have lost many thousands of middle class Conservative voters .

let alone anti grammar friends from Eton, Harrow, Radley, Benenden, Wycombe Avvey, Marlborough, Oundle, Clifton, Charterhouse, PHS, PGS, Dulwich, etc ad nauseam. Of course they wouldn't want jumped up middle class grammar school children getting above their station!!

Sorry but DstepF's parents were like this. Sent 7 yr old DStepF to boarding preps at the other end of the country then Rugby School and hated below-stairs DC getting a good grammar education as it gave them 'a false sense of their own importance'.

Fortunately for most people that attitude died out with Downton Abbey.

True, I'm avoiding the comprehensive nearest to me. I applied for 3 comprehensives. We got our second place which happens to be in a different LEA. As I live on the border, it's only 3 miles away.

All comprehensives. I support comprehensives. The last time I looked, we had a preferences. No-ones 'creaming off' anyone.

I think those comprehensive supporting old Etonians actually send their own children to comprehensives, too.

One thing that I don't understand about grammar schools is that plenty of children shine in some areas but not in others. Why will a good all-rounder who will get into a decent university through hard work suffer so horribly in a comprehensive that they have to be educated elsewhere, but a brilliant mathematician who is destined for a top academic career but only likely to get a grade C in GCSE English is supposed to be better suited to a secondary modern?

HPFA. Clearly the vast majority of any new grammar places would go to the 'middle' classes and whats wrong with that !

The Social Mobility argument is subsidiary to my wanting of grammar schools. The main reason for me is the belief that the state should provide an education that is equal to the best of private education !

If there was/is Social Mobility from the implementing of new grammar schools that's a 'bonus' but not the primary reason for me !

The problem with this site is posters always seems to be 96% in favor with each other on 'contentious' causes. This means it becomes a place for 'nodding' donkeys to agree with each .
However, this very narrow focus means posters are unable to see more than two foot in front of themselves and view the mainstream view !

Clearly this was witnessed in the case of 'Brexit' , where 98% or whatever on here were clear 'remain' voters evidencing the totally unrepresentative views on here .

Another thing why is it always the 'University' educated 'Rich' left wing campaigning against grammar schools !

The main reason for me is the belief that the state should provide an education that is equal to the best of private education

And how will the state afford this?

"The main reason for me is the belief that the state should provide an education that is equal to the best of private education !"

I agree.

But why do you need to separate children off into different schools to proved good quality teaching? You haven't made a case for this.

"One thing that I don't understand about grammar schools is that plenty of children shine in some areas but not in others."

I have never seen a good answer to this question from the pro grammar lobby. I suspect this stems from the fact that most of them believe children can be sorted like sheep and goats - they are either 'bright' or 'not bright'.

I have a ds who is very strong in maths, science and music (he easily got his level 6 maths in year 6 while in a class of 31 children in a state school in a rough area, despite no practice at home, no homework, no tutoring, no parental input). His writing is lamentable though.

Though i don't now what quantifies middle class !

Some posters seem to assume that if a family does not claim 'Pupil Premium' and places an importance on education they are middle class!

I don't consider the majority of parents and children i meet at the DCs grammar schools to be particularly middle class or well off.

"The main reason for me is the belief that the state should provide an education that is equal to the best of private education"

That's just utterly daft! How could the state possibly do that??

Sandyholme: how do you know Grammar schools provide a better education than comps? Most simply exactly reflect the level of ability of the intake, as they should! Where do you think the teachers in these new grammars will come from? They will mostly be from comps (because that's where most teachers are) so the skill of the teachers will be the same.

I happen to think that some private schools do offer a better education than state, and that is because they are free of the National Curriculum and the particular target culture that has taken grip over our education system.

I don't see how a grammar school equates to better education, per se.

I do want bright kids to fulfill their highest potential, I have seen no argument that proves they can do this in a seperate building and grounds, and much evidence that some of our brightest could well be missed by the 'first past the post' on 11+ Day' system.

If you or other posters go on to tell me that it doesn't matter if they miss out on 11+ day because they can do just as well at a High School, Modern or other 'goat' establishment (or proper comp
If there is one in the area) then that surely completely negates the purpose of the Grammar in the first place!

I am very pleased that my kids comp is permeable: kids can enter top sets and take increasingly academic pathways, and vice versa, up until the start of Yr 10. So a better chance of giving opportunity for a faster paced learning to high ability kids.

We have a school which has a selective stream near us. It is a good school all round, but provokes a competitive frenzy for the 'grammar' stream. Interestingly many of the kids who got in on the selective ticket are now neck and neck with their friends at two good local comps: some, like their comp friends, have GCSE grades including Bs and Cs, some, just like the comp pupils, have a row of A* and A. Overall the school gets a higher A-C % score because 25% of it's intake is super-selective. But at the level of the individual, some of those who got in on distance and went into the stream just below the top initially are getting top results, some who went into the selective stream are getting good but not dazzling results.

Clavinova - do you have first hand knowledge of the schools you are taking HPFA to task for? I can work out that I obviously live near her and can work out exactly which schools she is taking about. I did send my children to two of the schools in question, but their experience has been ruled as irrelevant because it was more than 10 years ago. And no, we didn't have the back up of private schools.

I can tell you that the intake of schools is skewed, so they have a higher proportion of the less able children. This is partly the way the catchments are drawn, and partly the effect of the Independent schools creaming off some of the more able children. Not all able children though, because there are plenty of well-educated parents with able children who can't afford private education either.